urgent help please

hi all
i just got my blood test test back and its not good. i have a severely elevated creatinine and urea leavel with indicates renal failure. my creatinine is on 183 (normal is 64-104) and urea is 11.5(normal 1.7 - 8.3). the doctor defines this as chronic renal failure. before when i had elevated levels, they werent as bad and i dropped all the creatine and protein and it returned to normal. does anyone have any experience with this as i have read that those with higher muscle mass have elevated levels. i am very worried as i am torn between overall wellbeing and having to give up something i am passionate about i.e. training and the necessary supps that go with. i plan to immediately stop my muscle marinade pre workout and drop my protein from 336grams ed to around 220grams. any thoughts/opinions/suggestions?/?

one more thing. my cycle was gonna start next week. test eq and dbol. should i hold that off for now. what impact would that have on the kidneys

cut any creatine based products,up water intake to 5l-8l a day.see if this helps.protein down to 1g per pound so 2.2g per kg

thanks Dj. i just emailed him part of an article i found by John Berardi. whats your thoughts on this below

Article



Refernce :

www.bodybuilding.com/fun/berardi80.htm



Elevated levels are sometimes seen in kidney disease due to the fact that a damaged kidney will not remove creatinine from the body as it should. Also, elevated levels are seen with the use of some drugs that could impair kidney filtration. Finally, elevated levels could also be seen with muscle degeneration, a high protein diet, or creatine supplementation.

With respect to creatinine measurements, it's important to note that the amount of creatinine in the blood is regulated by the amount being produced (from protein degradation - muscle or dietary) vs. the amount that's being removed (by the kidney).

Therefore, although creatinine in the blood could be a marker of a damaged kidney's inability to filter creatinine out of the body at a normal rate, it could also be a marker of rapid protein degradation (via muscle damage from weight training or from a high protein intake).

Think of the blood as a sink. If you turn on the faucet at a low rate, the amount of water going into the sink and the amount leaving the sink should balance each other out, leading to a predictable amount of water in the sink at any moment. However, if you partially plug the drain, you'll get more water accumulating in the sink at the same faucet flow rate.

This is similar to kidney dysfunction (thinking of the water as creatinine). However, alternatively, if the drain remains unplugged but you crank up the faucet flow rate, you'll get more water in the sink due to the higher flow. This is similar to a high protein diet.

Since weightlifters are continually breaking down muscle protein (this is a good thing), even in the absence of a high protein diet, blood creatinine concentrations tend to be elevated. Furthermore, add in a higher protein diet and creatinine concentrations in the blood will rise.

Finally, since creatinine is also a breakdown product of creatine, if a weightlifter is taking creatine supplements (which most do), blood creatinine concentrations will also be high. What all of this means is that the faucet is turned up in weightlifters, not that the drain is plugged.

To address the other relevant measure, the nitrogen component of urea, blood urea nitrogen (BUN), is the end product of protein metabolism and its concentration is also influenced by the rate of excretion (as is creatinine). Excessive protein intake, kidney damage, certain drugs, low fluid intake, intestinal bleeding, exercise, or heart failure can cause increases in BUN

Decreased levels may be due to a poor diet, malabsorption, liver damage, or low nitrogen intake. Excess BUN is even more closely correlated with protein intake than is creatinine. The same argument above applies here.

So, as you can see, since both creatinine and BUN are correlated with both high protein metabolism AND kidney function, I'm not suggesting that it's unreasonable that doctors are worried about the kidneys of your son or daughter.

But it's important for you and your doctor to realize that the increases in BUN and creatinine seen in healthy weightlifters who eat higher protein diets aren't necessarily a function of kidney health but are much more closely correlated with their diet and training.

Dude don't start to cycle until this is resolved, that is dangerous levels and you going to land up on dialysis.. Go to Dischmen and buy this (Detox-Kit) it is by Heel, this is a very powerful detox for your kidneys and liver, you take it 3 times a day, include Cranberry Extract with this. Drink 9 glasses of water a day, this will be done for 3 weeks, have a 3 week break then do it for 3 weeks again, you going to need 2 detox kits for this... I am certain this will help...

The problem here is not added creatine, the problem here is renal failure where creatine levels will show to be elevated and traces of protein or blood in the urine, yes I do advise to cut any creatine related products for now..

Have you been taking enough water, creatine deydrates you too, placing major strain on the kidneys... 9 glasses a day is bare minimum when using creatine..

If you cycle now, you probably going to land up with heart issues and chronic hypertension. Testosterone and dianabol on the kidneys olalaa... No thank you, I know all about it... EQ is fairly safe but will place strain, so will the elevated RBC on the cycle.

thanks for all your help Pump. i drink at leat 6 litres of water a day. should i drop my protein as well??

what about what the article is saying above about bodybuilders having higher levels of cretinine?

can i still have whey????

ok i read up on heel detox. thanks a mill pump. ill get me some of that and pray for the best. in terms of the all the gear i have (about R5000 worth so far excl pct). will i be able to use this again. can i use normal supps like bcaa and whey???

dude just get your body sorted first.. id cut protein to 2 grams per kg for now . lets fix your body with natural stuff because medicine cant fix the damage you caused , it will just cause more. ur body needs no toxins in it now, no head ache tablets, and prescription medication unless it is necessary , bit you need to resolve this before you land up on dialysis

thanks pump
i will follow your recommendations. some time ago i read that whey can increase urea levels by up to 40%. dont know if that was marketing hype to sell their bcaa. in my two grams per kilo of protein, would u recommend keeping weigh or dropping it completely?

have you suffered something similar before as you have a lot of knowledge on the subject?

ye bro, i was close to dialysis, but i have now recovered when docters said there was no hope.. im not 100s but i dont have protein or creatine now only microscopic amount of blood what i aim at resolving soon, with sheperds purse, very powerful natural way to stop bleeding. i would recomend the whey over red meat, red meat doesnt agree with ones kidneys all that well, and my kidney specialst said whey is perfect, just no other supplements

how much protein are u eating a day Pump. did the gear have anything to do with ur situation

it had everything to do with it.. currently on 2.2 .. its what i can tolerate .. you will be ok bro, justt need to fix the kidneys then look at cycling again

Having to deal with patients that are in renal failure - in my line of work - on a daily basis, I would say to you; Please to consult a specialist as soon as possible. I take that you most probally have consulted a GP.
When dealing with a situation as serious as this you have to play open cards with the attending physician so that a definite diagnosis can be made.
Renal failure is no joke and the only cure is a kidney transplant.
Have yourself sorted out asap.

the last time this happened though, my doc insisted that i see a dietician. what a horrible diet. protein was at 0.6g/kg bodyweight. it was like someone sucked the air out of me. i was allowed to eat as many carbs as i wanted and had to stop all supps. i remember saying to her, i dont care if i ever set foot in a gym again, i just want to be healed. she told me that i could never recover form that high creatinine and urea levels as the kidneys dont heal themselves.

so i followed the diet and in a few months the bloods revelaed everything was perfect. now i started thinking, i wonder if i just use half a serving of whey for pwo. im sure that wont hurt. that then lead to a full serving which led to a pre workout with creatine an intra workout etc etc etc

i am hopeful that if i stop the all the supps and take ur advice on 2g/kg protein that all will be well for my next bloods in 6 weeks

00pump wrote: it had everything to do with it.. currently on 2.2 .. its what i can tolerate .. you will be ok bro, justt need to fix the kidneys then look at cycling again

i never thought that injectables like test are heavy on the kidneys. i know that orals are liver toxic but always take milk thistle. i think that once im fixed, i must stay away from creatine period.

Ontong wrote: Having to deal with patients that are in renal failure - in my line of work - on a daily basis, I would say to you; Please to consult a specialist as soon as possible. I take that you most probally have consulted a GP.
When dealing with a situation as serious as this you have to play open cards with the attending physician so that a definite diagnosis can be made.
Renal failure is no joke and the only cure is a kidney transplant.
Have yourself sorted out asap.

whats the highest creatinine levels you have seen. i know my friends wife is pregnant and hers is 500. they say she should terminate the pregnancy.

This sounds quite serious . I don't know much about the subject so I would appreciate it if someone could explain how this can happen. Can high protein and creating alone cause this or are there other factors that will need to be taken into consideration?

Some people who use creatine alone have experienced renal failure, others on high protein diets the same.. That is why I urge everyone to do constant vital checks... BEFORE the damage has become to great.

@Ontong, complete renal failure the only thing that can resolve it is a kidney transplant or living a life on dialysis.. HOWEVER, doctors never focus on the natural route, there is a special fungus that grows in China that actually help regenerate kidney cells... We need to stop thinking putting medicine in us is the answer, because that is how all this started, we are in a age of medicine where things are so advance yet more and more people are getting sick and developing chronic conditions, why? Because of perscription and over the counter medicine, and that is a fact, our bodys PH levels are off bay, plaque is built up all over the arteries, stress attacks and kills us and the bottom line is we need to balance ourself.

Go see a chiro and get spinal manipulation, go do a colon clean for 30 days, do chelation therapy and detox your kidneys and liver... Our bodies created these organs, our bodies can repair these organs, but as soon as we think that medicine is doing the wonders we fall short, because this is so far from the truth.. Do we catch cancer? Do we catch parkinsons or even alzheimer's? no our bodies develop it because of an imbalance.

ice-rip: you know you playing with fire right? Not going to beat around the bush, but you where lucky you balanced your levels out the last time you focused on the diet, there are definate foods that are a no go and what you can eat with renal issues, however I would honestly seek advice from a nefrologist, I recommend Dr Campbell from Sunninghill she will work with you even if you chose to do further cycles, but I believe a kidney biopsy is what you need now. Now a fun feeling I can assure you having a needle stuck into kidneys but a worthwhile result to actually see what is going on, the other route is a scope, also not the best feeling have a pipe stuck up your penis with a camera attached but also she will see if it is necessary.

Im sure if one drinks enough water the kidneys will be fine.The creatine is the main culprit for this I think if memorary serves me right that creatine should be cycled 3 weeks on , 3 weeks of because of the kidney issue.

i did the cystoscopy before Pump. you right not pleasant. that was to determine where the blood in the urine was coming from.

i had a long hard think last night about a lot of things. whilst bodybuilding will always be my passion, my priority has to be my overall well being. i am 32 years old last month and have my whole life ahead of me. i will take no chances when it comes to my health any longer. all creatine supps, my multi vitamins, vitam b, glutamine, bcaa, vitargo, beta alanine etc etc (believe me the list goes on) have been cut out. as per your advice Pump, i will only have 24g of whey post workout. my protein has been dropped from 336grams ed to around 160grams (incl protein from carb sources). i am going to get the heel detox kit today and cranberry extract (although i heard thats for urinary tract infection) more fruit have replaced some of my carbs for the day to aid in the process. is there anything else you can suggest. once again, i sincerely thank you for taking time out of ur day to address my concerns

not to stray too much off topic but the rest of my bloods revealed:
total test 10.3 nmol/l (range 8.0 - 27.1)
shbg 27nmol/l (range 11.4- 52.3)
free test 227pmol/l ( range 180-536)
oestradiol /estrogen 85pmol/l (range <208)

my cycle (600mg pharma grade test cyp/week) ended on the 25/11/2010. my pct (admins pct) ended on the 15/01/2011. to mee it looks like my test is low and my estrogen is high. are these figures in the acceptable range guys?

ice-rip wrote: not to stray too much off topic but the rest of my bloods revealed:
total test 10.3 nmol/l (range 8.0 - 27.1)
shbg 27nmol/l (range 11.4- 52.3)
free test 227pmol/l ( range 180-536)
oestradiol /estrogen 85pmol/l (range <208)

my cycle (600mg pharma grade test cyp/week) ended on the 25/11/2010. my pct (admins pct) ended on the 15/01/2011. to mee it looks like my test is low and my estrogen is high. are these figures in the acceptable range guys?

Those figures are bad.

ice-rip wrote: i did the cystoscopy before Pump. you right not pleasant. that was to determine where the blood in the urine was coming from.

i had a long hard think last night about a lot of things. whilst bodybuilding will always be my passion, my priority has to be my overall well being. i am 32 years old last month and have my whole life ahead of me. i will take no chances when it comes to my health any longer. all creatine supps, my multi vitamins, vitam b, glutamine, bcaa, vitargo, beta alanine etc etc (believe me the list goes on) have been cut out. as per your advice Pump, i will only have 24g of whey post workout. my protein has been dropped from 336grams ed to around 160grams (incl protein from carb sources). i am going to get the heel detox kit today and cranberry extract (although i heard thats for urinary tract infection) more fruit have replaced some of my carbs for the day to aid in the process. is there anything else you can suggest. once again, i sincerely thank you for taking time out of ur day to address my concerns

No it actually aids in kidney health... Yes there are lots of other things I will suggest, just start with the detox and then lets take it from there.. You going to need 2 detox kits, 1 kit (around 3 weeks) then 3 weeks off then (3 weeks on) once you finished with that, I will give you a list of herbs + natural supplements to strength and aid in healing. As Ontong said, the kidney can pretty much not heal, however what ever is still in good condition we can get working at optimal performance..

I still have blood in my urine, but no protein or creatine and that was a big one, I had protein in my urine for around 5/6 years now... And finally my last consultation it is clear, only traces of blood, which one doesn't need to worry about, some people just do have a leaky kidney and have 100% kidney health, so don't stress to much about the blood, however protein and creatine is a big no go and we need to get rid of it..

LoL, so you also did the scope hows that urge to pee afterwards and the burning sensation and blood coming out, quite fun hey

Certain steroids that I find my kidneys can tolerate now is Primo + EQ + Anavar and Proviron, EQ needs to be around 500mg a week for my body to tolerate it any no noticeable difference in my bloods / dip stick. However if I add test everything just goes pair shaped.. So I make sure any of those compounds I stack with Proviron to keep libido up.

What really hits me hard is my PCT, my kidneys do not like Nolva or Clomid and what it hates even worse is synthetic hcg (ovidrel) or pregnyl. So my PCT is normally when my body goes pair shaped, however I have learnt which supplements I need to use which are powerful antioxidants... I have this all documented at home, dosage too that I found works wonders.. I will make an effort to post that for you this week.

Just keep your chin up supplements like glumtatine I find helpful, but some report against its use.. read this to educate yourself on the matter. www.thewayup.com/newsletters/041501.htm .. I use glutamine and protein, and I supplement zma (which is healthy and good to supplement).

Like I said, red meat is what the kidneys do not enjoy so I would rather get your sources from white meat and fish and it is safe to use whey concentrate. I have a few books on kidney health if you want I can send them to you, quite allot of reading, you do not need to go to indepth but just skim read and read things that stand out for you... It has taken me years to study every aspect of this and it has paid off, are you in JHB? if you are I will recommend you a natural doctor who has worked with me and helped me out massively but best to go once the detox is over and then we can see what the results come back like after this and then see what other sort of effort we need to put in.

ice-rip wrote: not to stray too much off topic but the rest of my bloods revealed:
total test 10.3 nmol/l (range 8.0 - 27.1)
shbg 27nmol/l (range 11.4- 52.3)
free test 227pmol/l ( range 180-536)
oestradiol /estrogen 85pmol/l (range <208)

my cycle (600mg pharma grade test cyp/week) ended on the 25/11/2010. my pct (admins pct) ended on the 15/01/2011. to mee it looks like my test is low and my estrogen is high. are these figures in the acceptable range guys?

A little low, but rather not worry about that now, that can be resolved in a natural way once the kidney function is better.