AAS induced Hypogonadism, the HPTA and PCT

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30 May 2014 12:36 - 14 Aug 2014 21:35 #169502 by Muscleaddict
AAS induced Hypogonadism, the HPTA and PCT was created by Muscleaddict
This write up should answer most of the questions that we get related to the topic, and will give you a basic understanding on the importance of timing PCT properly and how it all works.

Some of the most serious long-term side effects that many users of anabolic steroid users worry about are hypogonadism, which is a condition where one’s testes no longer produce sufficient testosterone, and infertility. In almost all cases sufficient time off between cycles along with the correct use of ancilliaries like HCG, clomid and nolvadex can prevent these problems.

Most informed steroid users follow Post Cycle Therapy protocols to help recover natural testosterone production as soon as possible after a steroid cycle. But if timed incorrectly or not done properly PCT can fail, resulting in slow HPTA recovery and the loss of most new muscle gained on the steroid cycle.

Anabolic Steroids and the HPTA

Before we go into when to take what and what each PCT drug does, it is important to have a basic understanding of our body’s system that regulates testosterone and sperm production – The Hypothalamic Pituitary Testicular Axis (HPTA), and to see what happens to the HPTA when we take steroids.

The HPTA refers to the production of the hormones released by the hypothalamus, pituitary gland and the testicles that regulate a man’s sex hormones levels and spermatogenesis. Testosterone and sperm production begins when the Hypothalamus produces a hormone (GnRH) to stimulate the pituitary gland to secrete the hormone that instructs our testes to produce testosterone - Luteinizing Hormone (LH) and the hormone that initiates sperm production in our testes -Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH). When androgen or sex hormone levels are too high as they are when on a steroid cycle, they form a negative feedback loop which inhibits the hypothalamus’ production of GnRH, effectively shutting down the HPTA. LH and FSH levels then drop to near zero, which results in no natural testosterone production, testicular atrophy and a very low sperm count.

Testicular Shut Down and preventing it with HCG

Testosterone is synthesized and secreted by the leydig cells in the testes and when these cells are not functioning due to suppression from anabolic steroids they begin to atrophy. The longer the leydig cells are inactive, the more their receptors down-regulate, which means that post cycle our testes do not respond properly to the signal to produce testosterone. We then need to wait while our testes recover their ability to function normally, or we use HCG, which is an analog of LH and FSH to speed up the process by directly stimulating the leydig cells.

If you begin PCT with your clomid or nolvadex before your testes are back to normal function, your testes will not respond optimally to treatment and your PCT will not be very effective and could fail. So proper use of HCG and timing of PCT is essential. A recent animal study showed that exogenous testosterone enanthate given over 10 weeks increased the rate of leydig cell death and that after the 10 weeks the testes contained fewer leydig cells. So ideally we want to maintain testicular function on cycle by using HCG to continue our natural testosterone production. HCG has also been proven to maintain spermatogenesis in men on testosterone replacement therapy. So guys worried about fertility should without a doubt use HCG on cycle. 250IU twice a week is the recommended dose.

HCG is a hormone that we inject to directly stimulate the testes to produce testosterone. It is an analog of luteinizing hormone and therefore binds to LH’s target receptors exactly as if it were LH. Your testes can’t tell the difference between HCG and LH. It is also a weak analog of FSH but still strong enough to maintain healthy sperm production while taking exogenous testosterone. For optimal HPTA recovery post cycle it is best to use HCG on cycle to maintain endogenous testosterone production and prevent testicular atrophy. HCG is somewhat suppressive on the hypothalamic-pituitary part of the HPTA due to negative feedback caused by the testosterone production it stimulates. So only use it as part of PCT if you do not use it during your cycle because it will interfere with the efficacy of the Clomid and tamoxifen.



Hypothalamic and Pituitary Shut Down

Anabolic Steroids inhibit both GnRH and gonadotropin (LH & FSH) secretion. Long term suppression causes the cells that produce gonadotropins to downregulate and atrophy and they effectively stop working. Generally these gonadotrophs and the hypothalamus will recovery normal function within months of ending a steroid cycle, but in some cases after long-term use spontaneous recovery does not happen .

To treat hypothalamic-pituitary shut down effectively during PCT it is essential to only start taking clomid and tamoxifen when your circulating sex hormone levels have dropped to their normal range. All estrogens, androgens, progestins and anabolic steroids exert negative feedback on the hypothalamus and pituitary, preventing them from sending the chemical messengers to stimulate testosterone and sperm production. If you start treatment too early your hypothalamus will not respond and your PCT will be wasted. This unfortunately is very common and steroid users who do this repeatedly without sufficient time off between cycles are at a high risk of developing secondary hypogonadism. Responsible, informed cycling and PCT can prevent this.

How do Clomid and Tamoxifen/Nolvadex work?

Clomid and tamoxifen are both selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) that we take to signal our brain to stimulate natural sex hormone production. This class of drugs binds to estrogen receptors on the hypothalamus and pituitary gland. The pituitary gland is fooled into thinking estrogen levels are lower than they actually are and it then secretes more LH, increasing testosterone production by the testes. Although clomid and tamoxifen seem very similar, clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist while tamoxifen acts as only an antagonist, ie. anti estrogen. What this translates to is that clomid acts predominantly as an estrogen, rather than an anti estrogen, by sensitizing the pituitary to the action of GnRH. Tamoxifen is almost as effective as clomid in binding to estrogen receptors, but it has little to no ability to enhance the GnRH-stimulated release of LH. Tamoxifen is however a more effective anti estrogen. Clomid and tamoxifen do compete for receptors to bind to, so because of clomid’s unique estrogenic action on GnRH receptors it is advised to use it first before starting tamoxifen.




When to start PCT?

To calculate accurately when to start PCT we need to look at the type of AAS used, the doses and the duration of the cycle. Generally, using 3 to 4x the half-life of the longest acting steroid in our cycle is a safe estimate. But when using nandrolone and trenbolone which are very suppressive, or a very high dose cycle, it is best to wait a bit longer to be safe.

To put this in perspective, a healthy 30 year old man’s total testosterone level on average is around ±600ng/dL. After 12 weeks on a cycle of testosterone enanthate at 600mg/week it will be ±5000ng/dL. Using a half-life of 10 days would put him at 2500ng/dL 10 days after his last shot, 1250ng/dL after 20 days and 625ng/dL 30 days into his bridge to PCT. Now that his testosterone level has dropped to the normal range the negative feedback on the HPTA will be minimal and SERMs will be effective enough to start PCT.

Now if for example he had added tren enanthate to that cycle, after 30 days into his bridge his ‘normal’ 625ng/dL testosterone level combined with the remaining circulating trenbolone in his system would still be a very suppressive and SERMs would be ineffective. It would then be best to extend the bridge by about 2 weeks. Take this kind of scenario into consideration if you plan on stacking different injectables on your cycle.

It is also important to ensure that estradiol (predominant potent form of estrogen) is low when starting PCT. Estradiol is extremely suppressive on the HPTA, even more so than testosterone. By minimizing it we can stimulate our hypothalamus and pituitary much more during PCT, improving recovery, and boosting testosterone production. An AI like aromasin is advised, particularly if you have been using HCG through your bridge as HCG increases estradiol along with the testosterone it produces. Elevated estradiol will also cause libido problems if your T:E ratio gets too low so you might need to add in an a low dose of an AI just for this purpose, even if you do not get gyno symptoms.
Last edit: 14 Aug 2014 21:35 by Muscleaddict.
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  • G-man
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30 May 2014 13:13 #169506 by G-man
Replied by G-man on topic AAS induced Hypogodasim, the HPTA and PCT
thanks MA....good reading as always.I'm just curious why everybody else is saying 2weeks until pct...it boggles my mind.

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30 May 2014 13:33 #169510 by Muscleaddict
Replied by Muscleaddict on topic AAS induced Hypogodasim, the HPTA and PCT

G-man wrote: thanks MA....good reading as always.I'm just curious why everybody else (who has no clue what they are doing so they do what their good bro read on a forum where another good bro with lots of posts from 5 years ago said so)is saying 2weeks until pct...it boggles my mind.

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30 May 2014 13:41 #169512 by G-man
Replied by G-man on topic AAS induced Hypogodasim, the HPTA and PCT
yes I realise 'the everybody else' obviously still lives in the stone age...people need to get educated properly,coz there's alot of sites that advocate the 2week theory and only since I've been on here I realise it's bs.

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30 May 2014 14:45 #169514 by LXIX
Great write up. Thank you!
So hcg before pct then?

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30 May 2014 15:36 #169516 by Muscleaddict
Replied by Muscleaddict on topic AAS induced Hypogodasim, the HPTA and PCT
Yes. HCG is suppressive on your LH production. It directly stimulates your balls to make testosterone but exerts negative feedback on your pituitary gland which causes it to secrete less LH. The clomid/nolva will still work if you use HCG during PCT but much less effectively than if you use the HCG before you start the SERMs.

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  • Cyclo
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30 May 2014 15:46 #169517 by Cyclo
Replied by Cyclo on topic AAS induced Hypogodasim, the HPTA and PCT
MA. +1

You truly understand the endocrinology.

My thinking is for someone wanting to use gear to first get a baseline blood Test level.
Then after the cycle go for tests and only start PCT when the Test levels are at or near baseline again.

However, please clarify. Would you apply this to the very suppressive compounds like Tren and Nandrolone? I.e to drop to baseline test will take longer?

Good judgement comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgement.
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30 May 2014 16:26 #169518 by Oupa
Your a champ MA. +1
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30 May 2014 16:46 - 30 May 2014 16:48 #169520 by Muscleaddict
Replied by Muscleaddict on topic AAS induced Hypogodasim, the HPTA and PCT

CycloTrpTyr wrote: MA. +1

You truly understand the endocrinology.

My thinking is for someone wanting to use gear to first get a baseline blood Test level.
Then after the cycle go for tests and only start PCT when the Test levels are at or near baseline again.

However, please clarify. Would you apply this to the very suppressive compounds like Tren and Nandrolone? I.e to drop to baseline test will take longer?


It would be best to get the blood tests done, but realistically not many guys are going to do that. With tren and deca you obviously can't get serum levels of that tested by your doc so we have to estimate. When using these steroids it won't take any longer for testosterone to drop to baseline as that is only dependant on the testosterone ester used, and a blood test won't help to determine when to begin PCT. Unfortunately there isn't much clinical data to go on but what you can work on is that deca and tren are at least twice as suppressive as testosterone on the HPTA mg for mg, so you would have to wait at least one extra half-life with these compounds for your PCT to be maximally effective.
Last edit: 30 May 2014 16:48 by Muscleaddict.
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  • Rhino
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30 May 2014 17:41 #169523 by Rhino
Replied by Rhino on topic AAS induced Hypogodasim, the HPTA and PCT
Thanks for educating us all MA, we are really lucky to have you around.

I can only give you +1 but it should be 10 B)

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30 May 2014 17:43 #169524 by Rhino
Replied by Rhino on topic AAS induced Hypogodasim, the HPTA and PCT
For a long cycle like mine even though it not Deca it wouldn't be a bad idea to extend my bridge for a week or 2 then?

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30 May 2014 18:35 #169536 by FIllet
Replied by FIllet on topic AAS induced Hypogodasim, the HPTA and PCT
Probably also a reason why its good to use your test longer than your 19 nor of choice and work off the half life of your test rather than your tren or deca. I gave you a plus one also MA, gonna show this post to all my mates.
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30 May 2014 18:39 #169537 by Muscleaddict
Replied by Muscleaddict on topic AAS induced Hypogodasim, the HPTA and PCT

Rhino wrote: For a long cycle like mine even though it not Deca it wouldn't be a bad idea to extend my bridge for a week or 2 then?


EQ is less suppressive than test so 3x half-life (54 days) enough time. But rather wait an extra week after your last test prop/mast shot.
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30 May 2014 23:01 #169550 by RonTheSaveg
Replied by RonTheSaveg on topic AAS induced Hypogodasim, the HPTA and PCT
+ 1 MA! Thank you for sharing your wealth of knowledge with all of us! You add a huge amount to this forum! Big respect MA!

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22 Sep 2014 16:19 #175026 by Mr T1984
Replied by Mr T1984 on topic AAS induced Hypogodasim, the HPTA and PCT
MA

Just had a read, and i must say it gets rather confusing but very interesting none the less and informative , here is my predicament, some help would be great if you could provide some.

So i ran a few cycles over the past years...... all with advise from "bro's" at the gym. this started in 2010 i will run through them very breifly.

2010 Feb
Sus d bol deca 8 weeks no PCT
2010 Oct
As above no PCT
2012 Jan
test e d bol deca 12 weeks no PCT
2012 july
as above No PCT
2012 dec 2012
Test e Clen winny No PCT

long story short I had no dam clue what I was doing and horribly messed up my sex drive and testo levels.

was feeling really horrible last year and went for blood tests, my test levels were 3.75 doc noted that was lower than expected for a guy my size and I had treatment to get my levels back to the norm. (medical aid paid for testo injections  )

I knew exactly why my levels where a mess.

so after reading about HGC im extremely impressed as to what it does, i was planning on running a very simple cycle and then only doing HCG during PCT.

but now i see more and more people saying one should run HGC during cycle, is this becoming the norm and is it recommended.
Im extremely paranoid about messing up my hormone levels again so im taking every precautions. so anti estrogen from onset of my cycle I do have slight gyno on set during cycles but have always run and anti-estrogen during cycle.

My burning question is would you run HGC during cycles then stop during your bridge then again running HGC during ones PCT?

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  • Muscleaddict
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22 Sep 2014 19:16 - 22 Sep 2014 19:17 #175051 by Muscleaddict
Replied by Muscleaddict on topic AAS induced Hypogodasim, the HPTA and PCT
Mr T 1984. You said that you had treatment for your low testosterone but then said that the treatment was testosterone injections? All that does is shut down your natural testosterone and HPTA even more (which is the cause of your symptoms) and make you feel better because you have exogenous testosterone in your body to take away all the bad symptoms you were experiencing.

That is just delaying the inevitable. If your HPTA is messed up and you need to see if the problem is in the brain, or the testes or both. Giving testosterone injections just masks the problem which is known as hypogonadism if your testosterone is consistently low.

The primary cause of ASIH (google that) in guys who continuously cycle without PCT or sufficient time off are Hypothalamic and Pituitary Shut Down and Testicular shutdown as mentioned above. You more than likely have hypothalamic/pituitary dysfunction and HCG does not help that. Only SERMS and time off will help that. HCG will help prevent testicular dysfunction but that's all. So even if you do HCG on cycle now you will most likely still have problems when you're off if you do a cycle before everything is back to normal. You'll either have to consider going on permanent HRT, or start the long process of trying to get your testosterone levels back to the normal range.

What exactly did the doc do to help you? When did you stop treatment?

HCG should be used on cycle rather than during PCT.
Last edit: 22 Sep 2014 19:17 by Muscleaddict.
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22 Sep 2014 19:39 #175055 by Mr T1984
Replied by Mr T1984 on topic AAS induced Hypogodasim, the HPTA and PCT
it was one injection i got and that was it few month later i had a full range of blood tests done.

i did request that everything be check and well everything came back just fine, have since been checked again and my levels seem normal.

have not been on a cycle in ages

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22 Sep 2014 19:43 #175056 by Muscleaddict
Replied by Muscleaddict on topic AAS induced Hypogodasim, the HPTA and PCT
You're very lucky. Good that you've taken a long time off.
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  • tyronegmc
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30 Nov 2017 06:38 #213735 by tyronegmc
Replied by tyronegmc on topic AAS induced Hypogonadism, the HPTA and PCT
Hey all,

So after reading this thread and learning about Doctaris PCT, I am a little confused.

I'm running a 12 week Test E 500mg per week and going to follow PCT protocol 2.

I did not use HCG during cycle (wish I did). I've read this is better.

Now the question is, should I still run HCG during my PCT? I'm scared because now I read that HCG will prevent Clomid and Nolvadex from being as effective.

Should I scrap hcg from pct?
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30 Nov 2017 09:14 #213737 by 00pump
Replied by 00pump on topic AAS induced Hypogonadism, the HPTA and PCT
look at the article section on PCT protocol 3

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30 Nov 2017 09:19 #213738 by Rooi Bul 86
Replied by Rooi Bul 86 on topic AAS induced Hypogonadism, the HPTA and PCT
Like Pump Said look at PCT 3.
I have used PCT 2 and 3 numerous times just prefer 3 and blood work also shows that 3 works better for me

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30 Nov 2017 10:28 #213741 by tyronegmc
Replied by tyronegmc on topic AAS induced Hypogonadism, the HPTA and PCT
Will there be a problem if I follow PCT 2?

At this stage I will struggle to find aromosin.

However, I do have Liquid Letrozole but not sure if this can be used instead? Also not sure to what dosage.

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