No more fartarsing part1, Whats with the Clomid?

I wish I could formulate this post better but I'm on a time budget.

After a very long time I still do not get why people recommend Clomid. For PCT in general or for PCT after a 19-nor. Both Clomiphene and Tamoxifen are simillar acting SERMs. They both act as antagonists for estrogen in the breast, and block the action of estrogen in the breast which could lead to gyno. So they wont facilitate progesterone related gynecomastia by acting as an estrogen in the breast. They also both have this function in pituitary and hypothalamus, thus preventing the negative feedback on testosterone production caused by estrogen. So they can both be used for PCT. They also both lower prolactin induced by excess estrogen.

The only exception to these above points that I can find to this is the fact that ~30% of a clomiphene tablet exists in a form that is slightly more estrogenic than the remaining 70% (Particularly in the rat) which may actually negatively impact PCT and gyno.

Since we know tamoxifen is far cheaper than clomiphene, and 20mg of tamoxifen is just as good as 100mg of clomiphene, we know that tamoxifen is preferred for PCT.
So the only remaining argument is this silly 19-Nor thing. Can somebody please provide me with the evidence that tamoxifen will aggrevate gyno in someone using a 19nor compound and that clomiphene will not. Since both these compounds have simillar modulating effects on estrogen receptors (with tamoxifen being better) I just cannot find the rationale for this.

I agree 100%

I have asked for the same information and nobody could provide it... Also the refering to Clomid for PCT still troubles me.... The only reason why I take for the first few days Clomid with Nolva is that I find nolva causes my vision to go blurry (hence I take it at night)

But you are spot on with the comment with regards to 19 nore aswell as using it for PCT...

Clomid has just tried to maket itself different to try make up for the weak dose as compared to that of nolva... and tried to use a different angle with its marketing approach trying to focus on fertility...

Nice and accuate answers! Hope people actually listen to it and stop recomending stuff that has been passed on for generations and actually not knowing the difference... its a constant argument I get into with some of my friends who think they know better.

00pump wrote:

The only reason why I take for the first few days Clomid with Nolva is that I find nolva causes my vision to go blurry (hence I take it at night).

Must say I never got that effect from the Nolva. You say taking it with Clomid reduces this effect for you?

No just the first few days I like to take a bit more SERM so I can't take 40mg nolva or i struggle seeing clear so I find it easier taking a higher dose of clomid with the nolva for a few days to kick my PCT in.

The sides of clomid I find I become emotional, I can look at a cartoon and somebody dies and i'll cry, lol, not that bad but you get what i'm saying

So no matter how similar these two SERMs are, they have different sides?
Maybe this then explains the issue about the 19nor and Tamoxifen?
Read that Tamoxifen increases the number of Progesterone receptors therefore escalating a pre-existing progesteone-gyno problem?

No scientific proof to what you saying.

Just a snip then read the rest if you want:

Which do you prefer? In my case, its nolva. With the use of hcg, and after. They do relatively the same thing, but nolva has less sides, and can be used at half the dosage of Clomid.

- Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, as far as the HPTA is concerned.

- It does not create the emotional sides that Clomid users experience.

- There is a potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, which may be cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex.

- It dosent taste as bad in liqued form as Clomid! lol..

- Its slightly cheaper when buying the actual pharmaceutical grade tabs.

I also have no problems running nolva throughout a cycle, where i wouldnt attempt it with Clomid.

</snip>


Read this www.elitefitness.com/forum/pct-post-ster...used-pct-329945.html

Pulled this off another forum

Deca, like ALL 19nors (tren etc...) doesn't convert to estrogen directly, and very little indirectly. But 19nors can cause a different type of gyno that is caused by progesterone/prolactin. Progesterone gyno doesn't cause a lump like normal gyno, it makes your nipples get big and excrete milk.

Anyway, this usually isn't a problem with 19nors. It becomes a problem when there is already estrogen present, this estrogen comes from stacking 19nors with test which easily converts to estrogen. Soooo, the estrogen-like quality of nolvadex might actually interact with the progesterone/prolactin that comes with using 19nors to produce that OTHER type of gyno that makes men produce milk.

In other words, the tren gyno that comes from stacking test with tren might occur without the test if one is using nolvadex because nolvadex is so similar to the estrogen that test converts to.

hence the word 'might'

I could also thumb suck a quote, but he has no scientific proof for what he is saying.... I have never got gyno related signs from using deca and nolva right through the cycle and into PCT and I am gyno prone! just looking at a bottle of test I get it. and i'm suffering right now from progesterone issues....

if you want to combat prolactin don't rely on nolva/clomid or even letro directly... use broma...

and you can also find a million posts about people with 'soft breast tissue' taking nolva and it causing that tissue to become less visable and that is targeting the exact thing we talking about...

I just had an gyno operation started some test / eq, etc... and started getting soft tissue right after my surgery, admin spoke to Docatri and said it looks like its prolactin / progesterone and recomened I use broma. I never had at the time and started with nolva what helped the sides.... so how could it cause it to become worse ? I am medical proof to show that is not the case...

but any scientific proof that shows this to be false I would like to see...

my surgeon was talking about treating me with nolva before the op to get rid of 'tissue' and I told him not to bother as I have taken more than enough to see it never went away.

Has anyone here had issues with taking novla when taking 19nore / tren?

look if it works for u then cool use it 00gramps, its a case of these guys being on this forum not knowing their bodies and if they are to take nolva with a 19nor and get lactating man boobs who do u think they are gonna turn around and blame?

its a case of it might not do that or it might do that to u and i am pretty sure some of these guys dont know their bodies well enough to make that call..

Look, first of all im no expert in this. I just use 19nors and ths progesterone gyno scares the living kak out of me, so all i'm doing is asking questions which hopefully will produce some definitive answers.

If Nandrolone/Tren is a progestin;

( www.steroid.com/Deca.php

Deca is a progestin (as are all nandrolones), unfortunately; it happens to stimulate the progesterone receptor 20% as well as progesterone itself

),

( www.steroid.com/Trenbolone-Acetate.php

Trenbolone is also a noted progestin: it binds to the receptor of the female sex hormone progesterone (with about 60% of the actual strength progesterone)

)

And Tamoxifen increases Progesterone receptors;

www.musclesweb.net/blog/what-is-prolactin-or-progesterone-gyno/

Many bodybuilders recommend using anti-prolactin drugs Bromocriptine or Cabaser / Dostinex (both Cabaser and Dostinex contain active ingredient Cabergoline), or even RU-486 “The abortion pill”, which is a progesterone blocker. These drugs have side effects are expensive and not commonly carried by many sources. I have heard reports from bodybuilders that bromocriptine didn’t help them, but strong anti-aromatase inhibitors like letrozole did. Therefore, it is better to use an anti-estrogen to combat tren based gyno. The only anti-estrogen I wouldn’t recommend for combatting this gyno is Nolva (tamoxifen) because in (J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2003 Sep;86(3-5):461-7) they found progesterone receptor expression increased, while it decreased with other anti-aromatase inhibitors.

J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2005 May;95(1-5):83-9.

Aromatase inhibitors: cellular and molecular effects.

Miller WR, Anderson TJ, White S, Larionov A, Murray J, Evans D, Krause A, Dixon JM.

Breast Unit, Western General Hospital, Edinburgh, Scotland, UK. EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED

Marked cellular and molecular changes may occur in breast cancers following treatment of postmenopausal breast cancer patients with aromatase inhibitors. Neoadjuvant protocols, in which treatment is given with the primary tumour still within the breast, are particularly illuminating. In Edinburgh, we have shown that 3 months treatment with either anastrozole, exemestane or letrozole produces pathological responses in the majority of oestrogen receptor (ER)-rich tumours (39/59) as manifested by reduced cellularity/increased fibrosis. Changes in histological grading may also take place, most notably a reduction in mitotic figures. This probably reflects an influence on proliferation as most tumours (82%) show a marked decrease in the proliferation marker, Ki67. These effects are generally more dramatic than seen with tamoxifen given in the same setting. Differences between aromatase inhibitors and tamoxifen are also apparent in changes in steroid hormone expression. Thus, immuno-staining for progesterone receptor (PgR) is reduced in almost all cases by aromatase inhibitors, becoming undetectable in many. This contrasts with effects of tamoxifen in which the most common change on PgR is to increase expression. Changes in proliferation occur rapidly following the onset of exposure to aromatase inhibitors. Thus, neoadjuvant studies with letrozole in which tumour was sampled before and after 14 days and 3 months treatment show that decreased expression of Ki67 occur at 14 days and, in many cases, the effect is greater at 14 days than 3 months. These early changes precede evidence of clinical response but do not predict for it. However, this study design has allowed RNA analysis of sequential biopsies taken during the neoadjuvant therapy. Based on clustering techniques, it has been possible to subdivide tumours into groups showing distinct patterns of molecular changes. These changes in tumour gene expression may allow definition of tumour cohorts with differing sensitivity to aromatase inhibitors and permit early recognition of response and resistance.

Surely there is reason for concern?

Hello hello boys, glad this thread has taken off… Sorry I couldn’t reply earlier but work and gym are keeping me busy.

DJ Squirrel Man said:

Soooo, the oestrogen-like quality of nolvadex might actually interact with the progesterone/prolactin that comes with using 19nors to produce that OTHER type of gyno that makes men produce milk.

In other words, the tren gyno that comes from stacking test with tren might occur without the test if one is using nolvadex because nolvadex is so similar to the oestrogen that test converts to.

This is entirely inaccurate . Nolvadex is very different to oestrogen and most definitely will not provide any significant estrogenic activity in the breast! Tamoxifen is an oestrogen agonist in some tissues but in the breast it is a veeery strong antagonist. Treatment with nolvadex will result in next to no oestrogen signal in the breast to assist any progesterone signal from 19-nor progestins.

In addition tamoxifen is also very antagonistic in the Hypothalamus and Pituitary. This means that tamoxifen will actually prevent prolactin expression that would normally be induced by increased oestrogen levels. Of course increased testosterone levels may simultaneously increase prolactin levels so at the end of a cycle prolactin may be high, but after a cycle testosterone levels are traditionally low, and using tamoxifen will tell the body that oestrogen is low too.

Mr. Jack Rabbit said:

Tamoxifen increases the number of Progesterone receptors therefore escalating a pre-existing progesterone-gyno problem?

Yes this is a much better point. Tamoxifen treatment does marginally increase progesterone receptor concentrations. This is hardly significant after a couple of weeks but increases with extended usage.
However when progestins like tren and deca constantly stimulate the progesterone receptor they actually down regulate progesterone receptor expression. So at the end of the cycle progesterone receptor concentrations are significantly lowered. Since a few weeks of tamoxifen does not radically increase progesterone receptor expression this effect should be marginally nullified.

In addition, clomid acts much the same as tamoxifen as an oestrogen antagonist in the breast. Now, studies have been conducted on the effect of tamoxifen and progesterone receptor concentrations because tamoxifen is more important in the treatment of breast cancer because it is more potent in preventing breast development than clomiphene. This being said, if the same studies were conducted using clomiphene, who is to say it would not have the same effect on progesterone receptor concentrations, since it has the same oestrogen antagonistic effect that results in progesterone receptor up regulation in the breast as tamoxifen.

Mr. Pumper said:

No just the first few days I like to take a bit more SERM so I can't take 40mg nolva or I struggle seeing clear so I find it easier taking a higher dose of clomid with the nolva for a few days to kick my PCT in

Mr. Jack Rabbit said:

So no matter how similar these two SERMs are, they have different sides?

Actually blurred vision is a side effect of both tamoxifen and clomiphene… So it’s interesting Mr. Pumper has a better reaction using a combination. Perhaps this has something to do with the decreased action of clomiphene when compared to tamoxifen?



Anyways, to summarise what we have here are two compounds that have similar antagonistic activities in the breast and HPTA. We have real world experience from me and Mr. Pumper who have used 19-nor compounds and Tamoxifen without experiencing enhanced gynecomastia development.
To back the use of clomid and 19-nors people often use the example that progesterone receptors are increased with tamoxifen treatment, however this effect is only marginal during the short duration that a bodybuilder would use it for gyno or PCT. In addition this effect is even more blunted by the receptor downgrade that occurs with continual progestin stimulation. Furthermore, I asked for research that implicated tamoxifen in 19-nor gyno but exonerated clomiphene from this same effect. Although this argument is used against tamoxifen how can we rule out this activity with regards to clomiphene?

Inja said:

Actually blurred vision is a side effect of both tamoxifen and clomiphene… So it’s interesting Mr. Pumper has a better reaction using a combination. Perhaps this has something to do with the decreased action of clomiphene when compared to tamoxifen?

Response: That is exactly what the cause could be, I will for testing purposes try raise the Clomid up to 150/200 and see if the blured vision is part of this test too. (kids don't try this at home). I believe as you said its due to the fact they its a much weaker compound.

And note, tamoxifen is a 'breast cancer drug' hence it _should not_ cause any breast enlargment progesterone / estrogen related sides. Yes, maybe EXTREMLY high prolatic levels, tamoxifen might not be the best remedy and one would look at Parlodel (Broma).

But the question still remains is why is clomid a better choice over nolva. If one where to say it is due to the strength, then half the dose of the nolva (if one believs its due to high doses of this SERM)

why would Doctari put clomid in his PCT protocol if it is no good. There has to be a reason for those 5 days of clomid.

He's the Doc, I'm the biochemist.
I'm saying that clomid and kessar both influence the HPTA by binding the estrogen receptor in the same way, and thus restore test production through the same mechanism, except kessar does it better.
Doctari might have a good medical answer for why he adds clomid to his protocol, and I would love to debate the reasoning. There might be some fundamental aspect of medicine that I am missing.
The Doc has a lot of good advice and a lot of knowledge in the field, but I feel the use of clomid in PCT or with 19-nor deserves some challanging given the evidence and lack of evidence respectively..

inja i spoke to conan about this who is very friendly with the doc and he says that there is medical evidence and literature to back this up,i will ask him to comment on this and hopefully give the relevant studies...

Ha! That would be awesome, because I certainly can't find anything saying clomid is good and kessar bad, since they have different medical applications and are not often studied together. If there is indeed evidence justifying the above I would love to take a crack at it but until then I'm afraid I will remain convinced that it is all utter bollocks.

cool like i said i will ask the conan to answer this and hopefully he will get the studies off the doc

DJ cant you do me a favour since both conan or doc dont post anymore. Cant you ask him about finasteride usage during pct?should it be used only on cycle or during pct or half way into pct? I put this topic up and no one gave a concrete answer to it so since you communicate with em maybe you could just ask.

ok cool i will ask him

Lesa wrote:

DJ cant you do me a favour since both conan or doc dont post anymore. Cant you ask him about finasteride usage during pct?should it be used only on cycle or during pct or half way into pct? I put this topic up and no one gave a concrete answer to it so since you communicate with em maybe you could just ask.

What about my replies to that thread didn't you like? Where would you prefer I'd have elaborated?

your answers were not 100 confident. First you said run it cycle only then half way PCT if i wish to experiment etc. I dont wish to experiment i wish to hear a proper solid answer. Just like from all of the Docs posts where he states scientfic ways of how things work then gives you a proper solid way of using the substance. Im not saying your answer is no good Id just like to know what conan or doc would have to say since you were the only one to answer to that thread.