Steroid build up and pct start time.

hey guys,

i have been thinking about this alot recently after conan and i had a discussion and bascially its got to do with how a substances builds up in the body over a period of time and when you can basically start your pct... Admin has brought to our attention that steroid users should wait 3x the half life of the longest ester steroid before starting pct,this is a good rule of thumb to use but alot of the time there is still a big enough build up in the body after that amount of time that starting your pct then can still be ineffective. basically for my example i am going to use the example of injection 100mg of winstrol and you can see how it works its way out of the system in terms of the half life. so here goes.

Joe Average is going to be injection Winstrol Suspension at 100mg per shot.now winstrol has a 24 hour half life,so every 24 hours the amount in the body will drop by half! this is what will happen on the first 10 days :
day 1 :100mg injected,100mg in the body
day 2 :24 hours later 50mg in the body
day 3 :24 hours later 25mg in the body
day 4 :24 hours later 12.5mg in the body
day 5 :24 hours later 6.25mg in the body
day 6 :24 hours later 3.125mg in the body
day 7 :24 hours later 1.5625mg in the body
day 8 :24 hours later 0.78mg in the body
day 9 :24 hours later 0.39mg in the body
day 10:24 hours later 0.19mg in the body

ok so thats over a 10 day period you can see that after day 3 that the steroid level is low enough for you to start your pct. BUT the problem lies is thats only 1 injection, now if you start injecting every 2nd day, you may be only injecting another 100mg BUT there is still the build up of 25mg from the first injection that you have to take into consideration!

so if we look at the 2nd injection based on the finding we see this


day 1 :100mg injected,100mg in the body
day 2 :24 hours later 50mg in the body
day 3 :24 hours later 25mg in the body + 100mg injected
day 4 :24 hours later 12.5mg in the body + 24 hours later 50mg in the body
day 5 :24 hours later 6.25mg in the body + 24 hours later 25mg in the body
day 6 :24 hours later 3.125mg in the body + 24 hours later 12.5mg in the body
day 7 :24 hours later 1.5625mg in the body + 24 hours later 6.25mg in the body
day 8 :24 hours later 0.78mg in the body + 24 hours later 3.125mg in the body
day 9 :24 hours later 0.39mg in the body + 24 hours later 1.5625mg in the body
day 10:24 hours later 0.19mg in the body + 24 hours later 0.78mg in the body

so now we can see that on the 3rd day there is actually 125mg in the body as there is the residue build up from the previous injection! now by the time we have done out 5th injection there is actually a build up in the system from all the residue of 133.20mg.

now if we look at the first injection after 3days the blood levels have dropped from 100mg to 50,then to 25 then to 12.5mg and then this is a decent time for you to start your pct as the blood concentration is low enough where the drug might not be effective and active enough for it to mess up your pct. BUT now we have done 5 injections and now have the excess build up of 133.20mg to worry about. so 24 hours later u have 66.6mg then down to 33.3mg,down to 16.65mg so it might actually take a day later for you in order to start your pct. now this doesnt look like much when you are dealing with a substance such as winstrol,but lets move to something that has a 10day half life and some one is injecting a 1000mg every 10 days as in the case of some people using test en

day 1 :1000mg injected,1000mg in the body
day 10 :10days later 500mg in the body
day 20 :10 hours later 250mg in the body
day 30 :10days later 125.0mg in the body
day 40 :10days later 62.5mg in the body
day 50 :10days later 31.25mg in the body
day 60 :10days later 1.5625mg in the body
day 70 :10days later 7.8mg in the body
day 80 :10days later 3.9mg in the body
day 90 :10days later 1.9mg in the body

this is quite a realistic scenario... the same thing happens when you do twice weekly injections such at 500mg test en every 5th day for example...so if you look at it by the 5th 10day injection(or 10th 5th day injection) you will after that period of time have a risidule build up of another 333g of testosterone...which you will have to wait to metabolise and work out your system.

so now after injecting 1000mg of test enanthate every 10 days, at day 90 you stop the cycle you have to deal with 1333mg of testosterone

now if you were using 1000mg and u used the 3x the half life then you essentailly on day 30 have got 250mg to deal with,some people will wait till day 50 to start pct where blood levels will be close to 62.5mg now what happens when you are dealing with the build up in the system of the additional 333mg??? so lets look 1333mg 10days later = 666.5 10 days later = 333.25mg,10days later 166mg,10days later 83mg which is still higher than the 62.5mg than originally though would be in the system!!

look this might be all out there and stuff but you gotta realise is there is a build up in the system and that build up needs to be taking into consideration... now all these working have been done with the dose staying the same and injection protocol staying the same,this would be a whole lot different if joe average after week 5 decided to up the dosages of the substance being used...

now when constructing a cycle you should take this period of time into consideration... you have to wait 50days after your last test enanthate injection to start pct then you still have 50days in order to play with short esters!!

so if you need to start pct in week 15,make sure that you have finished your acetate/proprionate esters in week 13(3x the longest half life being proprionate 4.5days x 3 = 14days/2 weeks)and your short orals 1-2 days before (3x longest half life of anavar or winstrol is 9hours,so 27hours is 1 day,2 to be safe)

so lets look at it this as an example

week 1-10
1000mg test enanthate per week
week 8,9,10,11,12,13
test prop + masteron prop/tren acetate
week 9,10,11,12,13,14
winstrol orals + anavar orals + proviron

week 15 starts :

now by week 15 all the esters would've cleared for you start a happy decent pct which will let u recover from your steroid cycle... not the usual 2 weeks after your last injection of long esters we have been doing for so long!!

Awesome awesome awesome read!! It makes sence now! Thanx DJ!

Excellent post DJ, just a quick question though

When you're waiting for the ester to clear, as little as it is thats the ONLY test in your body (since your body shut down production of its own test). Since low test levels lead to loss of gains does it not make sense to start PCT too soon rather than too late? Just dont see the point of waiting an extra week if it risks losing gains

No, because it wont be effective, use something like Anavar up till a day and half before PCT, so you still have a high level of androgens and your body is still anabolic

00pump wrote: No, because it wont be effective, use something like Anavar up till a day and half before PCT, so you still have a high level of androgens and your body is still anabolic

Thanks man, now I finally understand why only androgenic compounds are used to bridge to PCT

starting a pct too soon is point less. lets look at this : if u are on a 1000mg of test a week and u wait 20days to start pct, there is still enough active test in the system (250mg) in order to for your cycle to still cause shut down,so by starting your pct to soon you are just fighting a loosing battle,as your as fighting to boost your own natural test levels against the injected source,there is still more than 80mg of test in your system(what your body produces naturally) for your body to still be shut down.

think of it this way, your body will shut down natural test untill the injected source is lower than that in the system... if your body produces 80mg a week and there is 100mg in the system,your body will never recover as there is 20mg more than produced naturally,u need to get that bellow 100mg before your body will start to recover... anything extra in the system that is over and above what is your natural hormone level is going to be a loosing battle!

Lets keep this sticky for awhile...

this is what you need to know when waiting to start your pct is the active half life of the drug using

Drug Active half-life
Formate 1.5 days
Acetate 3 days
Propionate 4.5 days
Phenylpropionate 4.5 days
Butyrate 6 days
Valerate 7.5 days
Hexanoate 9 days
Caproate 9 days
Isocaproate 9 days
Heptanoate 10.5 days
Enanthate 10.5 days
Octanoate 12 days
Cypionate 12 days
Nonanoate 13.5 days
Decanoate 15 days
Undecanoate 16.5 days

pct.befit4free.net/index.php here is a simple calculator that works out pct start date depending on the substance used!!! also shows u the build up in the system i was trying to explain!

plug in there 1000mg of test enanthate injected every 7 days, and you work on a 70day cycle (10 weeks) u will see by the last injection on the 10th week there is a build up of 2000mg in the system.

and if u use my example of 1000mg of test enanthate injected every 10days by the 5th injection i was still off by 200mg! i thought it was 1333mg build up its 1591mg!!

Ok so based on the new info, when must one inject to keep blood levels stable? Still 2 times a week?

correct

If you using long acting esters like Cyp / E, etc once a week is all you need, injecting more often will not make it more 'stable'. The only time stability of hormones is a problem if you changing your injection protocol all the time, eg: Friday today, then Tuesday next time, then maybe a Saturday. Keep to the same days and make sure that falls inside the half life.

you've gone about this completely wrong. as a result, anyone knowledgeable enough about pharmacokinetics & drug decay would be wise enough to completely disregard the contents of this thread. this is the 3rd time i'm unfortunate enough to encounter something of this sort. the 1st time was on another site, the 2nd occasion was on this very site in the General section. although back then the members & moderators were wise enough to not pay it much attention.

it's apparent enough here, but still, for the sake of formalities, what function do you propose for half lives as presented in your thread, DJ?

i don't make a habit of correcting anyone, it would be tedious on my part. indeed i've witnessed, on several occasions here where "bro science" & anecdotes were presented without any basis. often in direct contradiction to theory & what's been scientifically proven. for example, exaggerations about 17aa AAS hepatotoxicity & just recently someone stated that 50mg of A50 poses more of a threat to 50mg of dianabol.

so once again, should you decide to just accept that you're wrong on this sticky there'll be no need for me to correct you. unless of course you disagree, in which case i'll oblige & engage you (with the aid of clinical studies, textbook references & perhaps a Regression Analysis accompanied by an ANOVA)

Please explain Miguel...

Hey Miguel - in stead of freaking out about something why dont you help everyone out by stating where they went wrong?

You seem like a knowledgable guy so while you are here why waste time on flaming people trying to help?

Alot said here are from untested sources - we all know that. Some theories are going to be wrong and some not. Where else will we learn? Most of the subjects discussed here are ground breaking.

Anyone else want popcorn?

LOL@ deadgoat...ja this is going to be a good one

Miguel is more than welcome to argue anything that is posted, that is the beauty of this forum, also that is the only way anyone learns, because if you keep telling someone the grass is blue, somewhere this will be accepted as truth. So that is the great thing about a debate where people can learn from others in areas they are weak. Miguel, please share your thoughts and understanding on this matter, just a basic overview would be great.

Miguel, your arrogance is astounding. Instead of getting up on your high horse with all your pharmacological jargon, why don't you provide some insight into the correct procedures relating to PCT start time. If you do in fact have some knowledge and experience, then please, share it!

00Pump, you are a well respected member & contributor to this forum. You are also a moderator and as a result, restricted to this diplomatic approach of yours which i again respect.

I on the other hand am not. If you disagree with someone calling the grass blue, say why. You cannot just say 'according to perambulum of the radius's relationship to the square root of pie (which is not an explanation but just a barrage of 'expensive' jargon), you, kind sir are wrong and the grass is actually purple and unless you agree with me that you are indeed wrong like all the other members on this crap forum, i will be happy to argue further'

BULLSHIT. That is not the beauty of this forum. The beauty of this forum is the
SHARING of KNOWLEDGE in the form of ideas, discussions and healthy debate. Not telling someone that they're wrong then shutting up.

From this idiot's 1st post on msrp we have been asking him to stop flaming and refuting contributions from members and rather explain why he disagrees, providing evidence of his argument - still this doesnt/ hasnt happened.

This cake is full of shit and not at all helping this forum or its members to get where it's/they're trying to get.

My opinion. Like it. Dont like it, but I guarantee you Ive just said what at least 60% of this forum's daily contributors are thinking.

Peace...

Ok, I see this is upsetting more valued members, give me some time to think this through please.

Rowan, I agree with you there is a way certain things need to be said, Information sharing without offending others for their opinions, if there is scientific proof contrary to someone else's opinion debate it rationally not calling someone out to make yourself seem better than they are.

oopump,could miguel be the infamous bbg who got banned then went for a few literacy lessons then came back and opened a new profile?
his arrogance seems very similar to that of bbg

ditto, i wanted to ask the same thing but couldnt remember that prick's name, lol, thanks to chemical, thats the million dollar question, is miguel and bbg one and the same?