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High Frequency low vol or High vol low freguency?
- Empire
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now that is over and done with let us move along.
So I want to know from everyone here how they train? I was once for the bro split for many many many years, and then for some reason, I saw a higher frequency lower volume program and i was hooked!
So are you guys the typical chest/bis shoulders and tris, back and legs kind of trainers? or do you do upper-lower, push-pull, full-body kind of trainers?
when i go back to training i am going to be going straight into the higher frequency slightly higher volume approach.
my split i am going to be doing is :
Monday/Thursday : Back, Chest, calves, biceps
Tuesday/Friday : legs, shoulders, abs, triceps
i will be doing 1 exercise for each muscle group except for back and legs, i will do 2, 1 for back width and 1 for back thickness, and then 1 quad, 1 hamstring movement.
week 1 will be 4 days a week, 3 working sets per muscle, session 1 the 10-15 rep ranges, and session 2 the 6-10 rep ranges. rest 120 seconds per set.
week 2 will be 4 days a week, 4 working sets per muscle, session 1 the 10-15 rep ranges, and session 2 the 6-10 rep ranges. rest 90 seconds per set
week 2 will be 4 days a week, 5 working sets per muscle, session 1 the 10-15 rep ranges, and session 2 the 6-10 rep ranges. rest 60 seconds per set.
week 4,5,6
week 1 will be 4 days a week, 3 working sets per muscle, session 1 the 10-15 rep ranges, and session 2 the 6-10 rep ranges. rest 120 seconds per set.
Only 1 of those sets will be taken to failure and it will be the last 1. each other set will be taken to an effort level of 8 to 9. so i will leave 1 or 2 in the tank depending on how i feel.
all movements will be big movers/compound movements :
Chest: Incline smith machine press, Dumbell press,or chest machine
Back: Rack pulls, bent over rows, Tbar rows, single-arm dumbell rows, Chins or Pull-ups/ lat pulldowns.
Shoulders: dumbell press, smith machine press, side raises or upright rows with dumbells or shoulder press machine
Biceps: incline bicep curl, preacher curl, hammer curl
Triceps: Dips,skulls, or reverse grip close grip bench press
quads: squats, Pendulum squats, hack squats, leg press
hams: RDL, Still leg deadlift, lunges, hamstring curl
Calves: Standing or seated calve raises or donkey calves
abs: rollouts, hanging leg raises, cable crunches.
using the machine stuff for the higher rep stuff eg " incline smith machine press for chest in the higher reps, and dumbell press for the lower reps.
Cardio will be MINIMAL. and if i do decide to do cardio it will be farmer's walks or something as such, i am very much over the conventional cardio.
so why do I prefer doing 1 exercise per muscle group over doing multiple exercises? well, it is simple, you leave everything on the table right there and then, you prep yourself for that 1 exercise, that's all you got, can't fuck around and do this or that cos you didn't put in maximum effort into that 1 exercise. i did dc training for the better part of 8 months, and mother fucker did i get strong, however, 3 days in the gym didn't do it for me so much and also i had to deload every 5 weeks not the 8 to 10 they said. but then again i was only running 150mg of test so it would explain quite a bit, if i didn't i would get little niggles everywhere. how ever, i do extreme stretching after every exercise for as long as possible, this has been amazing for forcing growth.
lets hear what you guys do, or plan to do? etc
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- LesDoctor
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Bench: 100kg for 5
Squat: 120kg for 3 (ATG)
Deadlift: 200kg for 1.
Started using 100mg Test C every 5 days a year ago (won't get into the reasons why I started using now), I've kept training the same and I'm currently 110kgs after 1 year (Body fat slightly higher).
Bench: 150 for 3
Squat: 180 for 2 (breaking parallel but not ATG)
Deadlift: 280 for 1
Sorry for all that irrelevant info. So essentially I'd hit every muscle group twice a week. I start every session with a Compound.
Example: on the first Push day of the week I do Bench trying to hit between 3 and 6 reps for 5 sets. Then I do a standing Military press for the same amount of reps and sets. After that I do 3 sets of 8-15 with at least 60% of my 1RM of all other relevant exercises.
I do the same for Pull and Legs.
For my second sessions of the week I do more hypertrophy work however still keep everything within that 60% of my 1RM.
My sessions are about 90 minutes, need to try reduce my rest time when I get back to the gym.
Sorry for all the random info in between, but in summary I kind of do a mix of both high frequency and high volume.
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LesDoctor wrote: Although this will be purely anecdotal, I've stuck to Push/Pull/Legs/Push/Pull/Legs/Rest since I first started in the gym. This approach served me well as my strength skyrocketed and so did my weight. I was a very skinny 6"4 at 66kgs when I started my journey and in two years I got to 90kgs(body fat % didn't seem to change but it most likely did as it is impossible for that to be all muscle). This is while I was natural. Lifts after two years were:
Bench: 100kg for 5
Squat: 120kg for 3 (ATG)
Deadlift: 200kg for 1.
Started using 100mg Test C every 5 days a year ago (won't get into the reasons why I started using now), I've kept training the same and I'm currently 110kgs after 1 year (Body fat slightly higher).
Bench: 150 for 3
Squat: 180 for 2 (breaking parallel but not ATG)
Deadlift: 280 for 1
Sorry for all that irrelevant info. So essentially I'd hit every muscle group twice a week. I start every session with a Compound.
Example: on the first Push day of the week I do Bench trying to hit between 3 and 6 reps for 5 sets. Then I do a standing Military press for the same amount of reps and sets. After that I do 3 sets of 8-15 with at least 60% of my 1RM of all other relevant exercises.
I do the same for Pull and Legs.
For my second sessions of the week I do more hypertrophy work however still keep everything within that 60% of my 1RM.
My sessions are about 90 minutes, need to try reduce my rest time when I get back to the gym.
Sorry for all the random info in between, but in summary I kind of do a mix of both high frequency and high volume.
fuck sakes,6ft 6? where you born on a long weekend, or too much compost in your shoes?? haha.
push pull legs is always a good way of doing thing. Doing TRT dosing i am also wary of doing too much volume, so you say it is a rest period thing, it may be just too much volume, try limiting your number of work sets, for example, 3 sets for main first mover, 2 sets for any secondary movement.
example of a push day :
incline dumbell chest press 2x6-10,1x8-15(last set to failure) 120 seconds rest
chest fly 1x 6-10, 1x 8-15 90 seconds rest (last set to failure)
OHP 2x 8-15, 1 set of 12-15 reps 120 seconds rest (last set to failure)
side raises 1 set of 8-10, 1 set 10-15 reps 90 seconds rest (last set to failure)
tricep extensions 2 sets of 10-12 reps 90 seconds rest( no failure but 1 short)
close grip BP 1 sets of 6-10 reps, 1 set of 10-15 reps(last set to failure)
I personally like focussing the heavy movers first 2 sets on progressive overload, and then 1 set 10-15% lighter making sure you at least get the same amount of reps as the progressive sets. so, for example, first 2 sets you get 50kgs for 8 and 7. then drop down to 42-45 and make sure i get at least 7 reps.
have you ever done Push,Pull,Legs rest, Upper lower, rest?
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- Empire
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I might do a set where i get only 1 or 2 reps, but thats never the goal, i always try for at least 5 reps, but some days just suck.
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- Apoc21
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day 1 : chest and shoulders
day 2 : back and arms
day 3 : legs
and start at day 1 again only resting weekends.
3 x exercises per muscle group
4 sets @ 15 reps
Alternating between abs and calves each day.
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- LesDoctor
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Empire wrote:
LesDoctor wrote: Although this will be purely anecdotal, I've stuck to Push/Pull/Legs/Push/Pull/Legs/Rest since I first started in the gym. This approach served me well as my strength skyrocketed and so did my weight. I was a very skinny 6"4 at 66kgs when I started my journey and in two years I got to 90kgs(body fat % didn't seem to change but it most likely did as it is impossible for that to be all muscle). This is while I was natural. Lifts after two years were:
Bench: 100kg for 5
Squat: 120kg for 3 (ATG)
Deadlift: 200kg for 1.
Started using 100mg Test C every 5 days a year ago (won't get into the reasons why I started using now), I've kept training the same and I'm currently 110kgs after 1 year (Body fat slightly higher).
Bench: 150 for 3
Squat: 180 for 2 (breaking parallel but not ATG)
Deadlift: 280 for 1
Sorry for all that irrelevant info. So essentially I'd hit every muscle group twice a week. I start every session with a Compound.
Example: on the first Push day of the week I do Bench trying to hit between 3 and 6 reps for 5 sets. Then I do a standing Military press for the same amount of reps and sets. After that I do 3 sets of 8-15 with at least 60% of my 1RM of all other relevant exercises.
I do the same for Pull and Legs.
For my second sessions of the week I do more hypertrophy work however still keep everything within that 60% of my 1RM.
My sessions are about 90 minutes, need to try reduce my rest time when I get back to the gym.
Sorry for all the random info in between, but in summary I kind of do a mix of both high frequency and high volume.
fuck sakes,6ft 6? where you born on a long weekend, or too much compost in your shoes?? haha.
push pull legs is always a good way of doing thing. Doing TRT dosing i am also wary of doing too much volume, so you say it is a rest period thing, it may be just too much volume, try limiting your number of work sets, for example, 3 sets for main first mover, 2 sets for any secondary movement.
example of a push day :
incline dumbell chest press 2x6-10,1x8-15(last set to failure) 120 seconds rest
chest fly 1x 6-10, 1x 8-15 90 seconds rest (last set to failure)
OHP 2x 8-15, 1 set of 12-15 reps 120 seconds rest (last set to failure)
side raises 1 set of 8-10, 1 set 10-15 reps 90 seconds rest (last set to failure)
tricep extensions 2 sets of 10-12 reps 90 seconds rest( no failure but 1 short)
close grip BP 1 sets of 6-10 reps, 1 set of 10-15 reps(last set to failure)
I personally like focussing the heavy movers first 2 sets on progressive overload, and then 1 set 10-15% lighter making sure you at least get the same amount of reps as the progressive sets. so, for example, first 2 sets you get 50kgs for 8 and 7. then drop down to 42-45 and make sure i get at least 7 reps.
have you ever done Push,Pull,Legs rest, Upper lower, rest?
Haha, 6 ft 4, I would still be a twig if I was 6 ft 6. I definitely have found that I do far too much volume but I have this irrational fear of cutting back the volume because it has served me well in the past. Wonder if anyone else has that issue/fear?
Surprisingly I've never even thought about P/P/L/Rest/Upper/Lower/Rest. That would actually suit me very well, I think. I need more rest since I've been on TRT because I train a lot harder.
Your push day example is very similar to how I train I just need to alter sets and rest periods as you said.
I'm definitely keen to give your advice a try when I get back in the gym and I'll log my progress since Ive never altered my training since I started my journey.
Thanks for the free advice
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- LesDoctor
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Empire wrote: I am a little curious why a lot of guys seem to do 1 RM figures these days. if you arent doing powerlifting I don't really see the point unless you have overloaded the bar and prior work is hypertrophy driven. Or are a lot of you guys into powerlifting?
I might do a set where i get only 1 or 2 reps, but thats never the goal, i always try for at least 5 reps, but some days just suck.
To be honest, it was just an article I read when I first started training that training with sets that are around 60% or more of your 1RM are the best for strength and size.
I rarely test my 1RM, instead I use a calculator online. Let's say I am doing bench and I hit 100 for 8 reps with the last rep being a struggle, this calculator takes that info and generates what it thinks your 1RM would be. So i just look at what 60% of that should be and I use that estimation for my lighter sets. 60% of your 1RM is about 20 reps so I tend to use 80% of my 1RM.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Age%E2...in+young+and+old+men
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Apoc21 wrote: I do
day 1 : chest and shoulders
day 2 : back and arms
day 3 : legs
and start at day 1 again only resting weekends.
3 x exercises per muscle group
4 sets @ 15 reps
Alternating between abs and calves each day.
why such high reps for everything?
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Empire wrote:
LesDoctor wrote: Although this will be purely anecdotal, I've stuck to Push/Pull/Legs/Push/Pull/Legs/Rest since I first started in the gym. This approach served me well as my strength skyrocketed and so did my weight. I was a very skinny 6"4 at 66kgs when I started my journey and in two years I got to 90kgs(body fat % didn't seem to change but it most likely did as it is impossible for that to be all muscle). This is while I was natural. Lifts after two years were:
Bench: 100kg for 5
Squat: 120kg for 3 (ATG)
Deadlift: 200kg for 1.
Started using 100mg Test C every 5 days a year ago (won't get into the reasons why I started using now), I've kept training the same and I'm currently 110kgs after 1 year (Body fat slightly higher).
Bench: 150 for 3
Squat: 180 for 2 (breaking parallel but not ATG)
Deadlift: 280 for 1
Sorry for all that irrelevant info. So essentially I'd hit every muscle group twice a week. I start every session with a Compound.
Example: on the first Push day of the week I do Bench trying to hit between 3 and 6 reps for 5 sets. Then I do a standing Military press for the same amount of reps and sets. After that I do 3 sets of 8-15 with at least 60% of my 1RM of all other relevant exercises.
I do the same for Pull and Legs.
For my second sessions of the week I do more hypertrophy work however still keep everything within that 60% of my 1RM.
My sessions are about 90 minutes, need to try reduce my rest time when I get back to the gym.
Sorry for all the random info in between, but in summary I kind of do a mix of both high frequency and high volume.
fuck sakes,6ft 6? where you born on a long weekend, or too much compost in your shoes?? haha.
push pull legs is always a good way of doing thing. Doing TRT dosing i am also wary of doing too much volume, so you say it is a rest period thing, it may be just too much volume, try limiting your number of work sets, for example, 3 sets for main first mover, 2 sets for any secondary movement.
example of a push day :
incline dumbell chest press 2x6-10,1x8-15(last set to failure) 120 seconds rest
chest fly 1x 6-10, 1x 8-15 90 seconds rest (last set to failure)
OHP 2x 8-15, 1 set of 12-15 reps 120 seconds rest (last set to failure)
side raises 1 set of 8-10, 1 set 10-15 reps 90 seconds rest (last set to failure)
tricep extensions 2 sets of 10-12 reps 90 seconds rest( no failure but 1 short)
close grip BP 1 sets of 6-10 reps, 1 set of 10-15 reps(last set to failure)
I personally like focussing the heavy movers first 2 sets on progressive overload, and then 1 set 10-15% lighter making sure you at least get the same amount of reps as the progressive sets. so, for example, first 2 sets you get 50kgs for 8 and 7. then drop down to 42-45 and make sure i get at least 7 reps.
have you ever done Push,Pull,Legs rest, Upper lower, rest?
Haha, 6 ft 4, I would still be a twig if I was 6 ft 6. I definitely have found that I do far too much volume but I have this irrational fear of cutting back the volume because it has served me well in the past. Wonder if anyone else has that issue/fear?
volume is what has been drummed into our heads, thats one thing i noticed in armbrust gym in colorado, the guys that trained monster volume were not as big and as full as the other guys that do lower volume. And there are some beasts there man. since i came back from there, i have been lower volume higher intensity.
Surprisingly I've never even thought about P/P/L/Rest/Upper/Lower/Rest. That would actually suit me very well, I think. I need more rest since I've been on TRT because I train a lot harder.
we neglect that our bodies maybe only slightly enhanced, not like doing a 600mg test cycle, 100mg every 5 days just is a little bit of sauce, nothing major
Your push day example is very similar to how I train I just need to alter sets and rest periods as you said.
I'm definitely keen to give your advice a try when I get back in the gym and I'll log my progress since Ive never altered my training since I started my journey.
Thanks for the free advice
looking forward to seeing the progress dude
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- Empire
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LesDoctor wrote:
Empire wrote: I am a little curious why a lot of guys seem to do 1 RM figures these days. if you arent doing powerlifting I don't really see the point unless you have overloaded the bar and prior work is hypertrophy driven. Or are a lot of you guys into powerlifting?
I might do a set where i get only 1 or 2 reps, but thats never the goal, i always try for at least 5 reps, but some days just suck.
To be honest, it was just an article I read when I first started training that training with sets that are around 60% or more of your 1RM are the best for strength and size.
I rarely test my 1RM, instead I use a calculator online. Let's say I am doing bench and I hit 100 for 8 reps with the last rep being a struggle, this calculator takes that info and generates what it thinks your 1RM would be. So i just look at what 60% of that should be and I use that estimation for my lighter sets. 60% of your 1RM is about 20 reps so I tend to use 80% of my 1RM.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Age%E2...in+young+and+old+men
oh ok, yea i just thought i would check on that.
if you look at the way i suggest people train to its usually 80-85% of 1 rm and then a drop down to 65-70% 1 rm to failure.
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- Apoc21
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Empire wrote: why such high reps for everything?
I have found it to work out quite lekke for me.This is what I am currently trying out. Been at it for about 6 months.
Might be time to change things up. Currently only with bands to my access even higher reps give a nice burn.
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- LesDoctor
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I have found that I tended to look better when I was writing exams because I'd only go to the gym 4 times a week in order to study more, so perhaps low volume is the way.
Thanks for the advice, again, really appreciate it.
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but thanks for the compliment
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- Hormonas
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Generally speaking I like to tick a couple of things off during my week of training, for me these are:
Train everything twice - Push/Pull/Legs/Push/Pull/Legs/Rest. I'll train weak muscles three times a week sometimes.
Do 10-15 working sets per workout with a total weekly volume of 20-30 sets per group.
Take each muscle to failure or beyond failure a minimum of 4 times a week i.e. twice for chest, shoulders and tris in the one workout and again in the next Push workout. So 6 of my 10-15 working sets would be to failure or beyond per session.
My rep range is 8-20 reps and I aim for each set to be between 40 seconds and 1 minute long for appropriate TUT. And I rest for about 1 min between working sets and two minutes between failing sets...
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- vojago
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When I started lifting I had no idea I had hormone issues, so I ate and lifted training to become stronger as I wanted to compete in powerlifting.
I tried many different methods such 5x5's, Texas method, Cube and Wendler to name some of the better known routines.
The only way of training that ever produced results for me was high intensity (I still operate under the delusion that intensity equates heavy, some seem to differ these days), and frequency. I went from fat at 90 kg to strong and much leaner at over 100 kg training all lifts except deadlift three times per week with high intensity, meaning at most five reps per set.
This way I got to a powerlifting total of 540 kg. For me that was pretty strong, probably not so much for the rest of the members on this forum. This was in under two years of lifting in my late 30s, early 40s, and as I recently discovered, with suboptimal hormone levels.
Every time without exception when I switched to lower frequency, and or intensity, i.e., twice per week in stead of three times per week, or switched out to anything above 8 reps, size and strength quickly and noticeably changed for the worse.
Interesting to note also, I managed to break through a plateau with squat and reached 180 kg max by performing a variation of the lift 7 days a week.
I've also noticed some of my friends are able to pack on muscle quickly with higher reps and lower frequency. This is either due to hormone level, or perhaps our bodies are just wired differently, where some benefit from greater recovery periods, and others more stimulus in terms of repetitions.
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nutrition makes up for a big part of your hormones, especially if you are natural. if you hit the diet too hard, hormones will crash. so be careful of that happening.
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Empire wrote: suboptimal hormones in which way?
The last 18 months my testosterone was tested four times to be between 1 and 5 nmol/l (normal ref 12 and up). I go into more details in another thread.
Regarding BB training, I did try it for a while, but it wasn't about looking jacked for me. I enjoy getting stronger, and my brain appreciates the analytical way I can track my progress. Engineers like graphs. BB was too subjective for my brain to process and I found it frustrating to try and track my progress. I think it is a bit of an art to get right, so I do enjoy seeing the photos on this forum where the members get it right...
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so just an update, i managed to get a rack and a barbell and over 200kgs of weights, so i am back in action in my own little home gym.
so i got to do day 2 of my plan.
military press : 50 x 15, 50 x 15, and 50 x 13 (failure)
Close Grip Bench press : 65x 15, 65x 14, 65x13 (failure)
squats 85x 15, 90x 15, 90x 13(1 shy of failure)
Single-Leg DB calve raises 30kgx 13,30x12, 30,12(failure)
This Am :
Incline Chest press 80kgs x 12, 80x 12, 85 x 10(failure)
reverse grip bent over rows 70kgs x 12, 70kgs x 12, 70kgs x 11(failure)
Ez Bar Bicep curls 30x 12,30x 12 30x10 (failure)
Abs Hanging leg raises 3x 12.
Each set prior to failure set has been a good 1 or 2 reps close to failure.
So I know it seems like a pussy amount of weight used, but it is first 2 workouts back, and concentrating on a decent 3-second negative, and 1 second positive on each rep. but will see how I go over the next couple of weeks. All I know is I have been eating about 2100 calories daily due to inactivity and today there feels like there is a hole in my stomach. os the training is already kicking in. Not bad seeing I stopped going to the gym the Monday before lockdown.
So tomorrow's Shoulders and tricep work out, I will aim to increase the weight by a total of 2.5 to 5kgs and bring the reps down accordingly to meet the plan and stay very close to the failure point and then last set hammer it out to failure. I won't take squats to failure due to the safety aspect, and will most likely add in RDLs to that workout.
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- vojago
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Empire wrote: point me in the direction of your thread, would love to see what is happening there. Are you natural or haven't bounced back from your last cycle?
so just an update, i managed to get a rack and a barbell and over 200kgs of weights, so i am back in action in my own little home gym.
This is the most recent discussion. (Interesting, there is supposed to be a link below... Search for TRT and fertility advice)
I'm all natural, my testosterone is just low for some reason. I probably enjoyed life a little too much and my body suffered for it. Who knows. The doctor has prescribed TRT, but I am holding off because my we're still trying for another child.
You're making me jealous. I have a gym at home, and I have been slowing clawing back the strength I lost during my fat loss journey, and then last week I fractured my rib. I tried a light squat session and could not manage my usual warmup weights for a single rep...
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- Empire
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Ps, any mod that is reading this thread, please can you change the terrible spelling in the title, it makes me look like Helen Keller taught me how to spell.
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- Empire
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this week, I have been feeling quite bushed, sleeping has been great though, and I only been getting up once a night to pee, so I am out for the count, but man, it's been punishing haha, last week I got my squat up to 110kgs for 10 reps, will try and push to 115kgs this week for 8-10, and I am squatting 3x a week, so it has been pretty brutal, but so far so good.
ended up splitting my body part sets into sometimes 2 different exercises :
eg legs 3 sets. 3 working sets, 2 being squats, 1 being RDL
when legs 4 working sets, 2 being squats, 2 being RDL
when leg 5 working sets, 3 being squats and 2 being RDL.
but so far it has been challenging, my training partner who is a lifetime natural has been responding to this like no one's business, the changes in just over a week to his physique are pretty noticeable.
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- LesDoctor
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So keen to get back in the gym and try this.
I only have adjustable dumbbells that go up to 25 kg each.
Strength and endurance have been the main benefit so far.
At the start: (Keep in mind I can't do the standard lifts)
Lunges: 25 kg in each hand for 20 steps
Overhead Dumbell Press: 25 kg each hand for 8
Skull crushers: 15 kg each hand for 8
Pull-ups: bodyweight + 10 kg for 10
Now:
Lunges: 25 kg in each hand for 38 steps
Overhead dumbbell Press: Last night I repped out 20 reps of 25kg on each hand easily (was an insane feeling)
Skull Crushers: 22 kg in each hand for 6 good reps
Pull-ups: Bodyweight + 25 kg for 8
I'm sure there are lifts I have missed.
Other pros:
Insane recovery, not sore and tired all the time.
Weight has stayed the same but I am noticeably leaner (Even though I have reduced work expenditure and kept diet the same which was a bulk - Very Odd)
Not spending hours training a week. More time to work, chill etc
Thanks Empire for the advice. I'll maybe make a post of my results once I get back into the gym.
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So I had 2 guys come to train in my little lockdown house of pain last night, just a simple upper body session, by exercise 4, the one guy had puked twice and the other guy was on the floor for a good 8 mins.
nothing crazy, just the usual progressive overload principle for the first 2 sets, drop the weight down and go to failure. Incline chest press, Wide grip upright rows, reverse-grip EZ bar close grip bench press and 1 arm barbell rows, and then POP went the weasel. haha
if they return it will be lower body. let us see how they handle.
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- LesDoctor
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Such a great feeling to be excited for the next workout again. Didn't think i'd get this feeling in lockdown. Was a chore at the beginning.
Muscles are soaking up glycogen and looking insanely full at the moment, perhaps why I look leaner.
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