What You should know If you want to get jacked.

Hormonas wrote: I understand there are many ways to do things, reach muscle failure and progressively overload... And just clarify I wasn't mentioning degrees/diplomas to come across smart or anything, literally just to say that this technique isn't seen in textbooks or much at all. Maybe because it's classified as "pre exhaustion".

I simply theorize that in bodybuilding there are no "pre exhausting" sets - there are purely sets that are taking you toward that muscle's failure point so that it's forced to grow... And since we now know that heavy load isn't necessarily required for growth - we can arrange the session in a way that means we are failing with far lighter weights on big movements which we would normally need to load-up to get the same desired effect. This higher load would lead to a beginner favouring dominant muscles without meaning to and/or could lead to various injuries. If the big movement is done at the end of a session with moderate weight on a machine - awesome, if it's done with a spotter/safely with free weights then that's cool too.

I also believe that although the big 5 lifts are functional and should be incorporated in some way to promote stability and strength through common movements - they are not entirely necessary for bodybuilding as our primary goal is targeted muscle failure and we could use other exercises to reach that point.

Try a couple of sessions with this reversed technique - the squats at the end are enough to make a man cry :lol: full leg pump, good muscle pain, feeling the contractions etc but still allowing the rested stabilizers to protect the joints (even though they aren't being loaded very much) - and I believe THAT is where the squat is most useful!

see i personally dont feel that going to failure needs to happen every set, i make sure that if doing 2 sets the first 2 are aimed at progressive overload with a heavier weight in the right rep range. the 6-12 rep range is where i usually aim for then a 3rd set is backed off, and taken to failure like that. I felt the best i have ever felt doing this, and grew the most i have grown and that was only using trt. so if i had added more to the cycle i would have blown up quite a lot. i like using that RPE scale, so, for example, those first 2 sets are at an RPE 8- 8,5 and that last set is a rpe 9.5 to 10 where possible to perform in a safe exercise. a 15-25 reps set at an rpe 8.5 to 9.5 is fucking difficult and can also lead to injury just as much as RPE 8.5 to 9 on a 5-12 rep set.

we need to use everything as a technique, failure being 1 technique. a lot of people feel fatigued is a failure point, and that is evident with new trainees.

i must find the video from Christian from t nation where he goes over that theory that taking a muscle to failure with a lightweight vs heavyweight, he breaks it down to understand that in theory and practical application is 2 different things.


Na dude, I like the fact you listed things that challenge the norm and this would only happen with your knowledge and degrees, so i am glad you listed them. I am not a snowflake and take a good debate to heart, i love changing the way i do things if it been proven to make sense and work.

There is always the big-dick on the U.S. forums who replies and shuts down all conversation, glad we (this forum) are above that too :lol:

I am not saying that anyone has built a wordclass bodybuilding physique by only using bands, I don't know anyone who only uses bands and bodybuilders grow up in the gym lifestyle and have the mentality of "weights + machines" which is perfectly fine but it does mean it's unlikely we will see someone only having using bands.

If a genetically gifted person were to use bands correctly - with the right fixed point, angle of movement, resistance and mind-muscle connection, there is every reason for them to gain as much or more than if they were using free weights or, dare I say, machines. Mainly because they provide constant and increasing tension through the ROM, activating more muscle fibers and forcing more adaptions. And reducing injuries (if they aren't bouncing the elastic) as the tension is at it's lowest when the muscle/tendons are at their most vulnerable position (extension)

you are basically saying that doing a banded leg extension, banded/cable hamstring curl and say a banded hip thrust would present better growth than doing a hack squat, RDL and weighted hip thrust? i just dont see someone being able to load the muscle to progress doing this for long term results.

Yeah kinda...! But with those exercise examples I would say to do machine leg extensions because it has a nice movement 'arc' (if you can attach a band somewhere to increase tension, great), machine leg curl (banded if possible), free weight hip thrusts (banded if possible) and then some free weight, smith machine or hack squats at the end.

Bands being the cherry ontop of every cake in bodybuidling or could be the whole cake if absolutely necessary. If one were to front squat with a 80kg barbell (because they are limited to what they can get "off the floor" or squat with an empty barbell and bands to the floor/rack that provide 80kg resistance at the bottom of the movement and 130kg at the top - they'd certainly gain more with the one that gets heavier throughout the movement? We have always 'relaxed' or tried to keep tension at the top of the movement - this not only ensures it but makes it harder.

I just don't understand why you wouldn't want to work stabilizers and make them stronger? it makes no sense to me. If performing exercises and progression techniques correctly, stabilizers will get stronger as you go along.

We do want them to get strong but since they are more injury-prone than the larger muscles we are attempting to target - should they be subjected to an unnecessarily heavy load for the reps required hit the big muscles? Or is it possible to reach whatever our goal RPE/failing/fatiguing point is for the bigger muscles by putting as little strain on the stabilizers as possible? While doing more than enough to strengthen them...!

see i personally dont feel that going to failure needs to happen every set, i make sure that if doing 2 sets the first 2 are aimed at progressive overload with a heavier weight in the right rep range. the 6-12 rep range is where i usually aim for then a 3rd set is backed off, and taken to failure like that.

I absolutely agree with not going to failure every set. Generally speaking, failure or very near to failure needs to be reached by the muscle you want to train at least once per session to force adaptions and up to 3-5(ish) times if taking PEDs. For me this looks like 2 sets of RPE 8, 15-25 reps and then increase the weight slightly and aim for 9-9.5 RPE for 12-20 reps on the last set - basically completely failing or going into forced reps. Might do one or two more of those because I'm on "cycle" and then i'd move onto the next exercise for a different muscle or part of the bigger muscle group.

I am really surprised you have seen major injuries come from 5x5 when you start with next to no weight at all and only progress once you are able to achieve the full amount of reps. if they are getting injured they they arent recovered properly or moving too quickly through the progression.

For the 5x5 and progression you've mentioned, do you build up to 5 set of 5 reps? i.e. you may only be able to get 5 reps in the first set and maybe 2 in the last set in your first few sessions, but a few months later you can do 5x5? Would you ever suggest working the beginner athlete 'down' to 5x5? So you prep their form, stabilizers and muscles with 5x20 reps and take it down to 5x5 over a few months? The general rule of periodization for athletes is hypertrophy and then strength/power with the increased muscle so would it not then make sense to work them 'down' to the 5x5 with higher reps first for that reason too? Not sure how you do it with your athletes?

Great topic for members to read. Thx gents.

I am not saying that anyone has built a wordclass bodybuilding physique by only using bands, I don't know anyone who only uses bands and bodybuilders grow up in the gym lifestyle and have the mentality of "weights + machines" which is perfectly fine but it does mean it's unlikely we will see someone only having using bands.

so we hashed all of this out to give bands good reasoning to be used and on paper is superior to weights and machine alone, but no one is using them to get jacked.... well we just went in circles there haha.

If a genetically gifted person were to use bands correctly - with the right fixed point, angle of movement, resistance and mind-muscle connection, there is every reason for them to gain as much or more than if they were using free weights or, dare I say, machines. Mainly because they provide constant and increasing tension through the ROM, activating more muscle fibers and forcing more adaptions. And reducing injuries (if they aren't bouncing the elastic) as the tension is at it's lowest when the muscle/tendons are at their most vulnerable position (extension)

Thing is, not many pieces of equipment allow for this, and also many gyms don't have bands, and only the serious lifter is going to use this approach, myself included, i have 4 bands in my bag that get added to my old-school dungeon gym equipment, and if i don't have a fixing point the owner makes one on the machine haha.

you are basically saying that doing a banded leg extension, banded/cable hamstring curl and say a banded hip thrust would present better growth than doing a hack squat, RDL and weighted hip thrust? i just dont see someone being able to load the muscle to progress doing this for long term results.

Yeah kinda...! But with those exercise examples I would say to do machine leg extensions because it has a nice movement 'arc' (if you can attach a band somewhere to increase tension, great), machine leg curl (banded if possible), free weight hip thrusts (banded if possible) and then some free weight, smith machine or hack squats at the end.

see the problem comes in is how do you measure how much tension is on that band and equivolate it out to KGS, for example, each time you do an exercise you may be closer to the band so less tension, or further from the band so more tension. adding to machines is easy enough as those fixing points dont change, but when doing banded RDLS, its hard to judge you are getting the same stimulus every time.

Bands being the cherry ontop of every cake in bodybuidling or could be the whole cake if absolutely necessary. If one were to front squat with a 80kg barbell (because they are limited to what they can get "off the floor" or squat with an empty barbell and bands to the floor/rack that provide 80kg resistance at the bottom of the movement and 130kg at the top - they'd certainly gain more with the one that gets heavier throughout the movement? We have always 'relaxed' or tried to keep tension at the top of the movement - this not only ensures it but makes it harder.

chains work in a similar manner, why not use both? there are so many things that are cherries on the top, but dont substitute the initial movement.

I just don't understand why you wouldn't want to work stabilizers and make them stronger? it makes no sense to me. If performing exercises and progression techniques correctly, stabilizers will get stronger as you go along.

We do want them to get strong but since they are more injury-prone than the larger muscles we are attempting to target - should they be subjected to an unnecessarily heavy load for the reps required hit the big muscles? Or is it possible to reach whatever our goal RPE/failing/fatiguing point is for the bigger muscles by putting as little strain on the stabilizers as possible? While doing more than enough to strengthen them...!

do we want the hips to strengthen in a pattern that is adjacent to the strengthening of the hips and glutes in a squat? hell yes. strengthening stabilizers whilst strengthening other muscles seems more bang for your buck if you ask me.

see i personally dont feel that going to failure needs to happen every set, i make sure that if doing 2 sets the first 2 are aimed at progressive overload with a heavier weight in the right rep range. the 6-12 rep range is where i usually aim for then a 3rd set is backed off, and taken to failure like that.

I absolutely agree with not going to failure every set. Generally speaking, failure or very near to failure needs to be reached by the muscle you want to train at least once per session to force adaptions and up to 3-5(ish) times if taking PEDs. For me this looks like 2 sets of RPE 8, 15-25 reps and then increase the weight slightly and aim for 9-9.5 RPE for 12-20 reps on the last set - basically completely failing or going into forced reps. Might do one or two more of those because I'm on "cycle" and then i'd move onto the next exercise for a different muscle or part of the bigger muscle group.

these days i prefer higher frequency lower volume training vs high volume splits. i feel it works muscles better as you put everything you have into 1 exercise, you dont have back ups haha. so i actually loved training full body 5x a week before my last show, it felt amazing, and took nothing to failure too. body recovered, and i survived with only 1 strain of my glute doing a 20 rep hack squat.

I am really surprised you have seen major injuries come from 5x5 when you start with next to no weight at all and only progress once you are able to achieve the full amount of reps. if they are getting injured they they arent recovered properly or moving too quickly through the progression.

For the 5x5 and progression you've mentioned, do you build up to 5 set of 5 reps? i.e. you may only be able to get 5 reps in the first set and maybe 2 in the last set in your first few sessions, but a few months later you can do 5x5? Would you ever suggest working the beginner athlete 'down' to 5x5? So you prep their form, stabilizers and muscles with 5x20 reps and take it down to 5x5 over a few months? The general rule of periodization for athletes is hypertrophy and then strength/power with the increased muscle so would it not then make sense to work them 'down' to the 5x5 with higher reps first for that reason too? Not sure how you do it with your athletes?

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progression with 5x5 is so simple. let us use the squat for an example, you start with just the bar for 5 sets of 5 reps. you increase the weight by 2.5kgs total. you squat 1.25kgs on either side for 5 sets of 5, you keep on adding weight. so now after 10 squatting sessions you have added 25kgs to your squat ontop of the bar. now say you get 45kg squat for the following.
set 1 5 reps
set 2 4 reps
set 3 4 reps
set 4 2 reps
set 5 1 rep

next squat session you keep the weight at 45kgs total and go again
set 1 5 reps
set 2 5 reps
set 3 5 reps
set 4 3 reps
set 5 2 rep

next squat session you keep the weight the same at 45kgs total and go again
set 1 5 reps
set 2 5 reps
set 3 5 reps
set 4 5 reps
set 5 5 rep

now you completed your 5 sets of 5 at 45kgs you increase the weight by a total of 2.5kgs and carry on the same progression.

i find 5x5 or 5x8 or 3x10 will all work as long as you are progressing in the right fashion. i prefer dumbell movements because you can increase dumbells by 1kg per time as most gyms don't have the 1.25kg plates. you can go with a higher jump, it just means that you are going to be sitting on the same weight of 5 sets of 5 reps for quite a few sessions longer than 2 or 3 to get that progression. but when doing 2.5kgs total increase per time is perfect.

Loving the constructive information. Thank you everyone.

Aconotine wrote: Loving the constructive information. Thank you everyone.

Glad you loving it. It's what we are here for.

Haha I guess we hashed all of it out to prove the guys who think machines are "useless", implying that free weights are the best, are wrong :lol: You definitely need to get creative when using bands though, sometimes you need to move your torso in a certain way to keep tension on an area etc so definitely for the more advanced lifter who knows their body.

see the problem comes in is how do you measure how much tension is on that band and equivolate it out to KGS, for example, each time you do an exercise you may be closer to the band so less tension, or further from the band so more tension. adding to machines is easy enough as those fixing points dont change, but when doing banded RDLS, its hard to judge you are getting the same stimulus every time.

Tracking the weight would be near impossible but you wouldn't really need to - so long as you're hitting the muscle as hard as you can and 'failing' within the correct rep range then you would be progressively overloading. And yeah it's difficult to get the exact same stimulus but again, do we need it to? So long as you're hitting the right muscle...

these days i prefer higher frequency lower volume training vs high volume splits. i feel it works muscles better as you put everything you have into 1 exercise, you dont have back ups haha. so i actually loved training full body 5x a week before my last show, it felt amazing, and took nothing to failure too. body recovered, and i survived with only 1 strain of my glute doing a 20 rep hack squat.

Agreed and this is becoming very popular with a whole bunch of new research backing higher frequency training for most exercise. The idea of "train something hard and often and it 'needs' to adapt", seems to have some weight to it (excuse the pun). Upper/Lower Body, Push/Pull/Legs and Full Body splits etc are looking like the best options for bodybuilders. I like to do Push/Push/Legs as I feel better focussing on less muscles and using more exercises/angles - knowing I have hit them hard enough.

now you completed your 5 sets of 5 at 45kgs you increase the weight by a total of 2.5kgs and carry on the same progression.

Ah okay I see your progression there! Thanks for laying it out for everyone!

If I were to do a progression to a 5x5 for a beginner (or anyone) it would look something like:

Week 1-4
Set 1 = 20 reps
Set 2 = 20 reps
Set 3 = 15 reps
Set 4 = 12-15 reps
Set 5 = 8 reps

Week 4-8
Set 1 = 20 reps
Set 2 = 15 reps
Set 3 = 10 reps
Set 4 = 8 reps
Set 5 = 5 reps

Week 8 -12
Set 1 = 12 reps
Set 2 = 8 reps
Set 3 = 5 reps
Set 4 = 5 reps
Set 5 = 5 reps

Week 12
5x5

... for the reasons mentioned in my previous post!




Just another way to skin a cat! - as the saying goes

Hormonas wrote: If I were to do a progression to a 5x5 for a beginner (or anyone) it would look something like:

Week 1-4
Set 1 = 20 reps
Set 2 = 20 reps
Set 3 = 15 reps
Set 4 = 12-15 reps
Set 5 = 8 reps

Week 4-8
Set 1 = 20 reps
Set 2 = 15 reps
Set 3 = 10 reps
Set 4 = 8 reps
Set 5 = 5 reps

Week 8 -12
Set 1 = 12 reps
Set 2 = 8 reps
Set 3 = 5 reps
Set 4 = 5 reps
Set 5 = 5 reps

Week 12
5x5

... for the reasons mentioned in my previous post!




Just another way to skin a cat! - as the saying goes

ok but how would you lay it out interms of weight used? increasing weight-reducing reps? the typical pyramid style training?

increasing weight-reducing reps? the typical pyramid style training?

Yeah, increasing weight as necessary to get down to the desired reps.

www.reddit.com/r/bodybuilding/comments/g...are&utm_medium=web2x

Check this out. The importance of food in building mass.

Empire wrote: Ok so I thought I would get a topic going that gives people some hard truths about using gear, getting jacked and being big and muscle-bound.


1.) This is a marathon, not a sprint race.

Every jacked guy out there will have pretty much 1 thing in common, they have been at this for a long time. Yes you get the genetically elite that after 3 years they have blown up and put on 40kgs of muscle, but chances are, that isn't you. Most elite-level bodybuilders have been athletes or training for a very long time. EG Ronnie Coleman was into football and powerlifting before bodybuilding. Lee Priest had been training from i think it was 13 before he won an overall show as a junior at the age of 16. Common factor? They have been at it for al long time.


3.) Train hard.

Most people train like pussys. I have seen it a 1000x where someone out the weight down at rep 8 but could have done 20 reps. that isn't training hard. I usually suggest doing only 1 set to all-out failure, but it doesn't mean that the other sets have to be far from failure. I am talking stopping 1 rep short of failure eg you hit that squat for 10 reps, and you know that you aren't gonna get up if you attempt 11 reps, that is where you need to be. Then take that last set to where you would get up, and get your partner to spot you. but only do 1 set to that point.


5.) Not having a plan is planning to fail.

been going into the gym and just doing random routines for each day and are not making much progress? Your lack of planning is setting you up for shitty results. if you stick to a set routine, push yourself and monitor the progress you are going to blow up faster than you ever had.


7.) EAT.
food is the most anabolic substance in the world. Without it, you are wasting your time. work your macronutrients out, stick to it consistently and do that for 10 years. You will grow.

8.) SLEEP REST AND RECOVERY.

If you aren't sleeping you won't recover, and that means lack of growth. sleep 8 hours a day, allow the body to recover and you will make progress. remember muscle growth is a result of continual muscle damage that has repaired over time. if you are training 7 days a week, and are constantly sore and only sleeping 5 hours a day, you will make terrible gains. If you cut back to 4 to 5 days a week, and slept 6 hours a day for those training days and slept 8 to 9 hours a day on the non-training days you will make better gains.


11.) Don't neglect the 3 F's. Family, friends, and food.

Unless you are 2 or 3 weeks out from a show, then don't neglect the people around you. if you get invited to grandma's house for lunch, don't be a cunt and not eat her mash potatoes or eat out of a Tupperware. 1 meal ain't is going to probably aid you, not hinder you.

Feel free to add your bits and pieces, But I thought this would be a fun topic.

This is a great article.

I am not a pro like you guys. I started doing weights when I was 16, the main reason for it, I was teased a lot for being so skinny. The awkward looking kid. So my jouney began.

I also want to mention, I never used any steroids, I did natural bodybuilding (and many other sports).

I weighed 64kg when I went to the army at 17. I still weighted 64kg when I came back from the border.

At the time, I was very fit, but still skinny. From all of my sports, Karate probably made me the fittest.

Anyway, it took me 10 years of natural bodybuilding, taking vitamins, minerals, anti-oxidants, protein powders, creatine, BCAA, GABA, etc etc., to gain 10kg of muscle. I went from 64kg to 74kg.

It took me another 10 years to reach 84kg.

I was a huge Arnold fan. Bought every Muscle and Fitness I could. I followed them for years, read the articles, followed their programs. It feels like so long ago, I have already forgotten some names.

I stuck to training 6 times a week, splitting my routine into 3, twice a week, (1) front, (2) back, (3) legs. And repeat.

Unfortunately I stopped training in 2009. But my journey was a natural one, so my knowledge of steroids is not experience, it is reading what you guys do and say.

...
...

Ok, I deleted the rest. "Rather act the fool, than open your mouth and confirm it" (I am scared of that, being surrounded by pros here.

But this is a great article. I hope to learn more.

Being on TRT for so long, and not making real progress, I want to give myself a chance now.

Yes, I will make mistakes. But I am trying. I hope to not ask question too dumb here.

I miss those days. Would love to get back there.

Sorry, I removed some of your paragraphs, trying to hightlight the ones that were a big part of my own journey.

Great article.