Problem soldier

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30 Jun 2009 15:40 #16542 by North_Boy1
Problem soldier was created by North_Boy1
Hi Guys,

I am experiencing problems with the soldier. He has no energy and doesn't want to do battle. The enemy is not impressed as the soldier used to put up a good fight.
As instructed I followed my PCT by the book - Pregnyl 500iU 3 times a week for 3 weeks, Letrozole 10 drops in juice per day for 4 weeks, Fertomid 1 tablet(50mg) per day 5 days on 5 days off then 5 days on again.
I am in need of advice or suggestions to get the soldier fighting fit please.
:oops :banghead

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30 Jun 2009 15:44 #16543 by Empire
Replied by Empire on topic Problem soldier
what cycle did u do? i take it u did deca or tren,i suggest going back on to clomid for another 10-15days and it should sort the problem out

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30 Jun 2009 15:56 #16544 by North_Boy1
Replied by North_Boy1 on topic Problem soldier
Hi Dj,

Cycle = 4 weeks Dbol, 12 weeks PGW Deca, Test Prop and Test Enanthate.
Today 4 weeks on Letro, shouldn't I continue with it for say 6 weeks?

Regards

NB1

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30 Jun 2009 16:04 #16545 by Empire
Replied by Empire on topic Problem soldier
letro? nope dude. kill the letro and your man member should be fine,one of the sides of letro is no sex drive so can that,do more clomid and add in proviron...should sort u out

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30 Jun 2009 16:12 #16546 by North_Boy1
Replied by North_Boy1 on topic Problem soldier
Haven't done clomid or proviron yet. Should I ask the friendly grocer or available at chemist?

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30 Jun 2009 16:48 #16547 by Extreme
Replied by Extreme on topic Problem soldier
If you have a friendly chemist than you can try there otherwise stick to the friendly grocer.

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30 Jun 2009 17:53 #16554 by soloR
Replied by soloR on topic Problem soldier
Letro is the culprit, its quite potent. If your estrogen levels are too low, you'll lose your sex drive.

Chemical experiment in progress....

Eva body wanna be a bodybuilda, but don nobody wanna lif no heavy-ass weight.
Ronny Coleman

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30 Jun 2009 19:25 #16555 by jackrabbit1
Replied by jackrabbit1 on topic Problem soldier
NB1, did you do HCG on cycle? or just PCT?
If just PCT i recon its not enough for us older "ballies".
Fertomid is Clomid. Maybe just get a baseline on your Test levels. You might have to redo that PCT.

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30 Jun 2009 19:42 #16556 by jo1
Replied by jo1 on topic Problem soldier
North_Boy1 wrote:

Hi Guys,

I am experiencing problems with the soldier. He has no energy and doesn't want to do battle. The enemy is not impressed as the soldier used to put up a good fight.
As instructed I followed my PCT by the book - Pregnyl 500iU 3 times a week for 3 weeks, Letrozole 10 drops in juice per day for 4 weeks, Fertomid 1 tablet(50mg) per day 5 days on 5 days off then 5 days on again.
I am in need of advice or suggestions to get the soldier fighting fit please.
:oops :banghead


jo hond het gevrek! :nana2

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30 Jun 2009 19:50 #16560 by jackrabbit1
Replied by jackrabbit1 on topic Problem soldier
Nee Jo1, hys net bietjie siek en le daar op sy sak!

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30 Jun 2009 20:06 #16563 by jo1
Replied by jo1 on topic Problem soldier
dalk is hy biki oorwerk.

hy het rus nodig
staan jo hond ni eers meer vanaf sy sak op vir n' koeki ni?

of dalk vir 2 melk sakkies? :haha

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30 Jun 2009 20:59 #16564 by admin
Replied by admin on topic Problem soldier
Vark griep, Voel griep of selfs Hond griep?

My money is on the Letro...

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30 Jun 2009 21:24 #16565 by Showtime
Replied by Showtime on topic Problem soldier
I'm sure your dog would be fighting fit again soon :) you can atleast get some viagra in the mean time, just beware that when a woman experiences you in action on viagra she'll demand it the next time, haha.

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01 Jul 2009 08:33 #16568 by North_Boy1
Replied by North_Boy1 on topic Problem soldier
Jack,
I only did PCT.
jo1,
Die hond se hok word nou min gebruik. Sal plan moet maak want in die koue gaan die hond verkluim. Die hok is nie gewoond om onbewoon te wees nie.
Die hond staan op van sy sak af maar dit is 'n hafhartige poging. Hy het sy kragte verloor.
Took the last 50mg Fertomid last night and stayed away from the Letro. Now waiting for a miracle.

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01 Jul 2009 09:26 #16570 by Michael
Replied by Michael on topic Problem soldier
Probeer bietjie 'n ander hok, betykeer raak die hond moeg vir sy eie hok en soms spring hy op as jy vir hom 'n ander hok wys:laugh:

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01 Jul 2009 09:31 #16571 by ror123
Replied by ror123 on topic Problem soldier
Michael wrote:

Probeer bietjie 'n ander hok, betykeer raak die hond moeg vir sy eie hok en soms spring hy op as jy vir hom 'n ander hok wys:laugh:


:laugh: :laugh:

so true

Testosterone
Train hard
Bone like a monkey!

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01 Jul 2009 09:40 #16572 by North_Boy1
Replied by North_Boy1 on topic Problem soldier
Michael,
Baie goeie idee, maar my hond was lanklaas in 'n ander hok. Ek het nogals 'n idee waar om so hok in die hande te kry. :goodpoint
:nana2

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01 Jul 2009 13:25 #16597 by shaunrsa
Replied by shaunrsa on topic Problem soldier
I'll bet the old farm that it's the Letro. It completely obliterated my libido when I took doses above .5mg eod.

Also not sure about using it in PCT. It's an AI and should be used DURING the cycle in small doses to combat any sides imo. Most recommend doses of .25mg pd on average.

Maybe Admin and Netro DJ and the boys could come in here, but everything I have read and heard recommends use only during cycle.

I could of course be wrong here.

Pay the price of discipline or pay the price of regret

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01 Jul 2009 17:18 #16612 by Empire
Replied by Empire on topic Problem soldier
ok i was put in my place by conan when it comes to using letro post cycle,he said it doesnt do the same thing as using kessar would in terms of helping the test levels to rise as we may all think it does,he also said u would probably need a pct post letro use if u where to use it as part of the pct as it kills all estrogen and kills the sex drive.... he told me that when using a 19nor substance u cant use kessar/nolvadex as there is the progesterone side effect worry going on... instead he suggested using clomid for a space of 20 days instead of nolvadex at a dose of 50mg a day. in order to get those testicles firing on all cyclinders so use pregnyl during your cycle and then come pct time use your clomid to get the test levels up. hope this helps

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01 Jul 2009 20:48 #16630 by myotest1
Replied by myotest1 on topic Problem soldier
Northboy your sexdrive as the other members stated needs a little oestrogen in order to function properly, crazy but true.... cut out the letro like yesterday that in my opinion is def the culprit, using it post cycle is going to f@#$%%^&&*k you up so bad bra.

Yeah hit some more clomid and do some pregnyl!

Myo

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01 Jul 2009 23:19 #16654 by Inja
Replied by Inja on topic Problem soldier
I'll chime in on the letro as well. 10 drops was way to high unless you reverting gyno.
Something to look out for is you will suffer a huge estrogen rebound on stopping the letro as your body upregulates its aromatase expression to normalise your hormone profile. A good SERM is always important at this phase.

Sorry if I offend you
Its just my point of view

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02 Jul 2009 08:11 #16660 by North_Boy1
Replied by North_Boy1 on topic Problem soldier
Inja,
A good SERM ????

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02 Jul 2009 08:26 #16662 by Empire
Replied by Empire on topic Problem soldier
Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM) Compounds that bind with estrogen receptors and exhibit estrogen action in some tissues and anti-estrogen action in other tissues. The ideal SERM would deliver all the benefits of estrogen without the adverse effects. ex: Clomiphene Citrate (Marketed as Clomid or Serophene). Tamoxifen (Marketed as Nolvadex).

Aromatise Inhibitor (AI) Aromatase inhibitors exhibit a very different mechanism of action than SERM’s. Aromatase inhibitors prevent the conversion of androgens into estrogen in fat, muscle, breast, and brain. ex: Anastrazole (brand name Arimidex). FEMARA (letrozole tablets).

NOTE: Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes.

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary.

by William Llewellyn


SERM:
Clomid, stimulates the hypophysis to release more gonadotropin so that
a faster and higher release of follicle stimulating hormone aud
luteinizing hormone occurs. This results in an increase of the body's
own testosterone production. Clomid is a synthetic estrogen, however
it does also work as an anti-estrogen. How does it work? Because it is
a weak synthetic estrogen, it will bind to the estrogen receptor (ER)
and not cause any problems. At the same time the increase in estrogen
from steroids are blocked from attaching to the ER.

Nolvadex, is very comparable to Clomid, behaves in the same manner in
all tissues, and is a mixed estrogen agonist/antagonist of the same
type as Clomid. The two molecules are also very similar in structure.
It is not correct that Nolvadex reduces levels of estrogen: rather, it
blocks estrogen from estrogen receptors and, in those tissues where it
is an antagonist, causes the receptor to do nothing.

Cyclofenil, similar to HCG and Clomid in action. This drug is most
commonly used to increase endogenous testosterone levels after a cycle
in an attempt to avoid a hard crash while waiting for your hormone
levels to naturally balance. Similar to HCG and Clomid, cyclofenil
seems to quickly and effectively raise natural levels. Cyclofenil is
an estrogen that works as an anti-estrogen as well as a testosterone
booster.

AI:
Femara, (letrozole tablets) for oral administration contain 2.5 mg of
letrozole, a nonsteroidal aromatase inhibitor (inhibitor of estrogen
synthesis). Letrozole is a nonsteroidal competitive inhibitor of the
aromatase enzyme system; it inhibits the conversion of androgens to
estrogens.

Cytadren, (aminoglutethimide) at moderate doses, is a fairly effective inhibitor of aromatase and a weak inhibitor of desmolase (an enzyme needed for the
production of all steroids), and at higher doses becomes an effective
inhibitor of desmolase. It is therefore useful when using aromatizable
steroids, though it is not the drug of choice for this purpose.

Aromasin, tablets for oral administration contain 25 mg of exemestane,
an irreversible, steroidal aromatase inactivator. Exemestane is
chemically described as 6-methylenandrosta-1,4-diene-3,17 -dione.

Anastrozole,(Arimidex) is the aromatase inhibitor of choice. The drug
is appropriately used when using substantial amounts of aromatizing
steroids, or when one is prone to gynecomastia and using moderate
amounts of such steroids. It is manufactured by Zenica Pharmaceuticals
and was approved for use in the United States at the end of Dec 1995.

Proviron, is also an estrogen antagonist which prevents the
aromatization of steroids. Unlike the antiestrogen Nolvadex which only
blocks the estrogen receptors (see Nolvadex) Proviron already prevents
the aromatizing of steroids. Therefore gynecomastia and increased water
retention are successfully blocked. Since Proviron strongly suppresses
the forming of estrogens no re-bound effect occurs.

Teslac,is unique in its effectiveness as an antiestrogen. Like
Proviron, it prevents the aromatizing process of the steroids from the
basis. Thus, Teslac prevents almost completely the introduction of more
estrogens into the blood and subsequent bonding with the estrogen
receptors.

6-OXO, contains a naturally occurring aromatase inhibitor that is devoid of any direct hormonal or prohormonal activity (androgenic or estrogenic). It is what science refers to as a "suicide inhibitor" of aromatase.

L-Dex, same as arimidex or anastrozole; known as an AI and popular on chemical supply sites. This is the name given on chemical supply sites instead of it's original name. L-Dex meaning "Liquidex".

There are a number of chemical research sites that sell liquid products similar to the above mentioned items. These products are the same but in liquid form such as liquid clomid, liquid nolva, liquid femera, and liquid arimidex.

Dosage's are usually adminstered by droppers but dosage amounts per ml differ from site to site.



Also, even though bodybuilders resort to these products in paranoia of the affects of estrogen. It is important to remember, estrogen is necessary and must be balanced not completely inhibited in the system. Below is an excellent reading about the necessity of estrogen.

To much is bad, but estrogen in moderation is priceless!
by William Llewellyn

Can estrogen work to augment muscle growth? Is this hormone always unwanted when we are taking anabolic steroids? Anecdotal reports from athletes suggest that the use of estrogen maintenance drugs such as tamoxifen (anti-estrogen) or aminoglutethimide (anti-aromatase) may slightly hinder muscle mass gains during steroid therapy. An explanation or even clarification for this observation has not been easy to come by. Here I would like to take a look at the comparative effectiveness of certain aromatizable and non-aromatizable drugs, as well as the possible mechanism in which estrogen can play a beneficial role to the athlete.

The Androgen Receptor
All anabolic/androgenic steroids promote muscle growth primarily via the cellular androgen receptor (abbreviated as AR in this article). The steroid attaches to and activates the androgen receptor, which ultimately gives the cell an order to increase protein synthesis. This process is well understood. But it has been suggested that other mechanisms may foster muscle growth during steroid therapy as well, which lie outside of the androgen receptor. One way this is evidenced is by the fact that steroids displaying a high affinity for the AR in muscle tissue do not always promote an equally high level of muscle growth. In other words, anabolic potency does not always correspond perfectly to receptor affinity. Clearly there are some disparities that lead into question whether or not the androgen receptor is the only thing at work concerning growth.

Testosterone, Nandrolone and Methenolone
Testosterone is without question one of the most effective steroids for building muscle mass available to athletes. However it does not have the highest affinity for the androgen receptor compared to some other steroids. For example, it has been shown that by eliminating the 19-methyl group (nandrolone) the affinity of the steroid for the androgen receptor is greatly enhanced. Nandrolone thus displays approximately 2-3 times greater affinity for the androgen receptor compared to testosterone, yet its ability to promote muscle growth seems to be considerably lower than testosterone at an equal dosage. One discussed possibility for this occurrence is the reduced androgenic potency of nandrolone. While testosterone converts to the more active steroid dihydrotestosterone (3-4 times greater AR affinity) upon interaction with the 5-alpha reductase enzyme in various androgenic target tissues such as the skin, scalp, prostate, CNS and liver, nandrolone drops to a third of its original potency by converting to the weak steroid dihydronandrolone[ii]. However this action is very site specific, and in muscle tissue nandrolone dominates as the active form of the steroid. Therefore this explanation may not suffice.

Nandrolone also differs from testosterone in its ability to be converted by the aromatase enzyme to estradiol (an active estrogen). In comparison, nandrolone aromatizes at approximately 20% of the rate testosterone does, and as such is not known as a very estrogenic steroid. It is likewise favored when reduced estrogenic side effects such as water retention, fat deposition and gynecomastia are desired. However athletes know that there is a trade off with the reduced tendency for nandrolone to promote side effects, in that it is a less anabolic steroid. With its known high affinity for the AR in muscle tissue, could this suggest that estrogen may also be a key mediator of muscle growth?

When we look at Primobolan® (methenolone) we see a similar trend. Methenolone is at least as good a binder of the androgen receptor as testosterone. By some accounts it is on par with nandrolone[iii]. However it is known to be much weaker than both steroids at promoting muscle growth. We know that methenolone does not interact with 5-alpha reductase, and as such its affinity for the AR does not increase or decrease in androgen target tissues. This would logically seem like a more favorable trait for anabolism over the weakening we see with nandrolone. However methenolone is a markedly weaker anabolic, and requires relatively high doses to promote growth. This also brings into question the role of 5-alpha reductase in promoting an anabolic state. Perhaps the fact that Primobolan® is a non-aromatizable steroid is more relevant.

Estrogen and GH/IGF-1
To date the most common explanation for why anti-estrogens may be slightly counterproductive to growth in the sports literature has been the suggestion that estrogen plays a role in the production of growth hormone and IGF-1. IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor 1, formerly known as somatomedin C) is of course an anabolic product released primarily in the liver via GH stimulus. IGF-1 is responsible for the growth promoting effects (increased nitrogen retention, cell proliferation) we associate with growth hormone therapy. We do know that women have higher levels of growth hormone than men, and also that GH secretion varies over the course of the menstrual cycle in direct correlation with estrogen levels[iv]. Estrogen is likewise often looked at as a key trigger in the release of GH in women under normal physiological situations.

It is also suggested that the aromatization of androgens to estrogens in men plays an important role in the release and production of GH and IGF-1. This was evidenced by a 1993 study of hypogonadal men, comparing the effects of testosterone replacement therapy on GH and IGF-1 levels with and without the addition of tamoxifen[v]. When the anti-estrogen tamoxifen was given, GH and IGF-1 levels were notably suppressed, while both values were elevated with the administration of testosterone enanthate alone. Another study has shown 300mg of testosterone enanthate weekly (which elevated estradiol levels) to cause a slight IGF-1 increase in normal men, whereas 300mg weekly of nandrolone decanoate (a poor substrate for aromatase that caused a lowering of estradiol levels in this study) would not elevate IGF-1 levels[vi]. Yet another study shows that GH and IGF-1 secretion is increased with testosterone administration on males with delayed puberty, while dihydrotestosterone (non-aromatizable) seems to suppress GH and IGF-1 secretion, presumably due to its strong anti-estrogenic/gonadotropin suppressing action[vii]. All of these studies seem to support a direct, estrogen-dependant mechanism for GH and/or IGF-1 release in men. It is difficult to say at this point just how important estrogen is to IGF-1 production as it relates to the promotion of anabolism in the steroid using athlete, however it remains an interesting subject to investigate.

Glucose Utilization and Estrogen
Estrogen may play an even more vital role in promoting an anabolic state by affecting glucose utilization in muscle tissue. This occurs via an altering the level of available glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase. G6PD is an important enzyme in the support anabolism, as it is directly tied to the use of glucose for muscle growth and recuperation[viii] [ix]. During the period of regeneration after skeletal muscle damage, levels of G6PD are shown to rise dramatically. G6PD enzyme plays a vital role in what is known as the pentose phosphate pathway, and as such this rise is believed to enhance the PPP related process in which nucleic acids and lipids are synthesized in cells; fostering the repair of muscle tissue.

A 1980 study at the University of Maryland has shown that levels of glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase rise after administration of testosterone propionate, and further that the aromatization of testosterone to estradiol is directly responsible for this increase.[x] In this study neither dihydrotestosterone nor fluoxymesterone could mimic the affect of testosterone propionate on levels of G6PD, an affect that was also blocked by the addition of the potent anti-aromatase 4-hydroxyandrostenedione to testosterone. 17-beta estradiol administration caused a similar increase in G6PD, which was not noticed when its inactive estrogen isomer 17-alpha estradiol (unable to bind the estrogen receptor) was given. An anti-androgen could also not block the positive action of testosterone. This study provides one of the first palatable explanations for a direct and positive effect of estrogen on muscle tissue.

What does this all mean?
It is a long held belief among athletes that estrogen maintenance drugs can slightly hinder muscle gains during steroid therapy with a strong aromatizable steroid such as testosterone. Whether or not we have plausibly explained this remains to be seen, however the above evidence certainly does provide strong support for a direct and positive affect of estrogen on growth. Does this mean we should abandon estrogen maintenance drugs? I don’t think that should be the case. It is important to remember that estrogen can deliver many unwanted effects such as increased water retention, fat deposition and the development of female breast tissue when it becomes too active in the male body. Clearly if we plan a high-dose cycle with an aromatizable steroid, anti-estrogens will be an important inclusion. However we cannot ignore the suggestion of using estrogen maintenance drugs only when they are necessary to combat visible side effects during mild to moderately dosed cycles, especially if bulk is the ultimate goal of the athlete.

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02 Jul 2009 08:49 #16663 by North_Boy1
Replied by North_Boy1 on topic Problem soldier
Thanks DJ,
That was a mouthful !

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02 Jul 2009 08:54 #16664 by Empire
Replied by Empire on topic Problem soldier
u cant fault that i dont give good info

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