Advice on bloods and actions

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30 Jun 2020 20:58 #222741 by Bench86
Advice on bloods and actions was created by Bench86
Hi all

I had my bloods taken and wondered if you could comment on the results, and perhaps evaluate what I see as possible solutions to what I see as low T. I had tested my T levels twice before, and although I can't remember the exact readings it was also on the low side. My dad also suffered from hypogonadism so there might be a genetic link.

Results
Total test 15 nmol/L
Free test 232 pmol/L
SHBG 50.7 nmol/L

The doctor said it was on the low side of normal, so he did not want to start with TRT yet. My assessment is that while my total T seems to be in normal range, my SHBG count is comparitively high and free test very low.

I don't think I necessarily want to go on TRT, especially because it shuts you down further. But I have been reading on HCG therapy, where it stimulates your natural production of T.

So would love to hear your thoughts on my blood results, and:

1. Will HCG injections stimulate natural production, and increase free T?
2. How do I (and should I) lower SHBG levels
3. Does test production stay elevated after ceasing HCG
4. Should I take AI's with the HCG to avoid negative loop side effects from elevated test?

Age: 34
Weight: 105kg

I do strength training and recently (after testing) switched to carnivore diet.

Thanks in advance for comments, or any reference to threads already on the forum on this topic (most seem to only address PCT after cycles, not natural low T)

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30 Jun 2020 21:05 #222742 by Bench86
Replied by Bench86 on topic Advice on bloods and actions
I went through my older posts and I actually came across one of my tests 8 years ago I also wanted advice one. Difference on this test was it was done in afternoon (the latest one above was done in the morning in fasted state)

www.anabolicsteroids.co.za/forum/11-gene...sterone-test-results


Total testosterone - 11.2 nmol/l (8.0-27.1)
SHBG - 32.1 nmol/l (11.4-52.3)
Free test - 226 pmol/l (180-536)

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30 Jun 2020 22:11 #222743 by MPhilosopher
Replied by MPhilosopher on topic Advice on bloods and actions
If you have symptoms of low T, ask your doc to test for anything that could be the culprit - hemochromatosis or any other issue.

Otherwise, there are other pharmaceuticals that can be used to increase T, but you are likely better off doing TRT.

Also, why are you on a carnivore diet? High fat diet will be beneficial for hormones, but that's not to say carbs are useless. Insulin spikes with carbs can free up more T by lowering SHBG, otherwise you could use some DHT derivative or "pure" DHT to do this if necessary.

If fertility is an issue, I am sure others will help you in this forum. I would assume some sort of adjunctive HCG therapy along with your TRT.

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30 Jun 2020 22:23 #222744 by Bench86
Replied by Bench86 on topic Advice on bloods and actions

MPhilosopher wrote: If you have symptoms of low T, ask your doc to test for anything that could be the culprit - hemochromatosis or any other issue.

Otherwise, there are other pharmaceuticals that can be used to increase T, but you are likely better off doing TRT.

Also, why are you on a carnivore diet? High fat diet will be beneficial for hormones, but that's not to say carbs are useless. Insulin spikes with carbs can free up more T by lowering SHBG, otherwise you could use some DHT derivative or "pure" DHT to do this if necessary.

If fertility is an issue, I am sure others will help you in this forum. I would assume some sort of adjunctive HCG therapy along with your TRT.


Thanks for the input! Will be sure to look at hemochromatosis, maybe go see the doctor again. But why would he not have gone that route already? Are my test results not that bad then?

To be honest, I'm doing carnivore from following a guy on twitter Carnivore Aurelius. I've tried quite a few diets before (banting and keto, normal caloric deficit) with underwhelming results. I want to drop fat % because I know that will also help with T. And preparing a week's meat on Sunday braai is very easy meal prep and tasty. I try and incorporate lamb, beef steak and liver and game. Also eat some full fat unflavored yoghurt at times. Tested for ketones and I am in ketosis.

Fertility is not an issue, I have two kids but don't want to struggle later if we do opt for a 3rd. Symptoms I experience that might indicate low T is low sex drive and performance, fat around the waist, very little body hair and depression (I've been on anti-depressants since high school).

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30 Jun 2020 22:37 - 30 Jun 2020 22:41 #222745 by MPhilosopher
Replied by MPhilosopher on topic Advice on bloods and actions
Since fertility is not an issue, TRT is a very good option to have, should there be no other underlying issue causing the low T.

I am not sure what your doctor checked, could be a pituitary issue.

Ketosis is irrelevant, even when following low carb periods. If you ever plan on reintroducing plant matter or anything else, carnivore will fail you in the long term and you could easily develop negative responses to any other food once you reintroduce it. I would think about using some avocado or any vegetable you feel you tolerate well and slowly build up.

PS I am a big fan of red meat, so it isn't the issue of red meat, rather the restrictive nature you end up paying for long term

EDIT: Yes your T looks low. If you have symptoms of low T and your levels are what you posted AND your doc is against putting you on TRT altogether.. find a new doc
Last edit: 30 Jun 2020 22:41 by MPhilosopher.

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30 Jun 2020 23:04 #222746 by Bench86
Replied by Bench86 on topic Advice on bloods and actions

MPhilosopher wrote: Since fertility is not an issue, TRT is a very good option to have, should there be no other underlying issue causing the low T.

I am not sure what your doctor checked, could be a pituitary issue.

Ketosis is irrelevant, even when following low carb periods. If you ever plan on reintroducing plant matter or anything else, carnivore will fail you in the long term and you could easily develop negative responses to any other food once you reintroduce it. I would think about using some avocado or any vegetable you feel you tolerate well and slowly build up.

PS I am a big fan of red meat, so it isn't the issue of red meat, rather the restrictive nature you end up paying for long term

EDIT: Yes your T looks low. If you have symptoms of low T and your levels are what you posted AND your doc is against putting you on TRT altogether.. find a new doc


Not sure what to believe anymore when it comes to dieting. Have a look at Carnivore Aurelius twitter account if you want. But I'll gladly take the avo advice.

So HCG alone not a good alternative for TRT? I actually like the doctor I went to, so not sure if there are recommendations for good doctors in Jhb. Or do you hop from doctor to doctor until you find one that says TRT is the way to go?

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30 Jun 2020 23:10 #222747 by MPhilosopher
Replied by MPhilosopher on topic Advice on bloods and actions
Definitely wait for other gents to give their input.
I have looked into HCG monotherapy but I am not educated to give you an answer.
Out of safety and efficacy, I would personally rather go the TRT route everyday of the week.

Yes I have utilized small periods of carnivore and it helped a lot with depression and OCD for me, however I am not a fan long term
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01 Jul 2020 08:02 - 01 Jul 2020 08:04 #222748 by Empire
Replied by Empire on topic Advice on bloods and actions
I did a post on another thread that may explain a lot more to you here, the post does pertain more to the keto part of someone's question, but keto and carnivore can be changed in this example

f your test levels are low your SHBG levels are high, this could be potentially due to your keto dieting, I have written a prior response to someone on the forum here, so excuse me if I paraphrase for this example.

think of basic human survival in cave man-day, when food is low(winter months) the hunters would become lethargic and do not much hunting and working as they are there to survive, and that is generally because fruit and carbs and excess of fatty meat wasn't available (winter and snow would make animals scarce, and fruit would die in the cold) so what would happen is your their hormone levels would drop, just to maintain basic survival. so if you are trying to survive and you are barely eating enough to do so, testosterone levels would diminish, thyroid levels would diminish as the body is trying to conserve as much energy as possible.

However, Come to the change of seasons, food would become more plentiful so when eating in abundance again would bring the body out of survival mode, and start becoming fully nourished again. now when foods are higher, especially based carbohydrate foods, insulin is secreted, and we know that higher levels of insulin have been known to lower SHBG. So here comes the logical thinking of this point... When food is higher, and your body is fully nourished, your hormones come right, and when in summer that is MATING season, so when that happens and hormones are at their highest, the FRUIT OF THE LOINS is more desirable.

But, I see you have said you have done a keto cut, and I am assuming that you did the traditional keto type of cut where you didnt really do any carb ups or if so, very minimal.

The benefit of the ketogenic diet is that insulin is low, and the growth hormone is high, and testosterone can be elevated. However, you do this a long enough time, and there are adaptions to the metabolism. Thyroid levels start to drop as most people are scared to bump up calories to where they need to be from time to time. This is why carbohydrate spiking in a keto diet to me, is incredibly important. Now with insulin levels being elevated during these carb up periods, as from above, SHBG levels will decrease, allowing for testosterone levels to be spiked higher, etc. We all know that higher testosterone combined with higher insulin levels is a magical response for gaining muscle, but if you aren't depleted enough, gaining fat too.

Back to the example of if your calories are too low during a cut and with traditional Keto dieting.

Look at anorexic women and highly undernourished women for that matter, the first thing they lose is their period, as their reproductive system shuts down as they aren't eating enough food to survive themselves, how are they supposed to support growing a human inside of them when caloric needs would be even higher than normal. Same thing here, when not eating enough your hormone levels are going to plummet. Anyone who has been through a drastic contest prep diet/Cut will attest to at about 8 weeks out, www.youporn.com goes out the window and you tend to go to www.foodporn.com .

remember the body is designed to survive. When food is low, your body wants to hold on to as much stored energy as possible (body fat) so what it does it starts lowering your energy so that you burn less, and store more for the long term survival. so how does it lower your energy requirements?

Well, thyroid levels decrease and you become lethargic. Your body starts to sacrifice muscle, as the more muscle you have the more energy you burn and that's a no-no at this stage! So body also shuts down the reproductive system lowering testosterone, so that you can survive, not procreate, as well as be energetic when it comes to combat. So looking at survival, your body may need 2000 cals to Survive, and you may need 2800 to MAINTAIN healthy hormone function so your 2300 calories are enough to survive and still keep hormones functioning for a period of time before leptin drops and your body realizes you aren't taking in that maintenance calorie level, or even over nourishing the body to keep your body thinking of the summer months like in the caveman days.

So the standard diet these days for people is a HIGH protein, Low fat, and high carbs as a rule, however I see some retardedly low amounts of saturated fats on most people that fuck with healthy endocrine function as I stated for your Mrs above.

So for me, my suggestion would be to sort out your diet, that they is between 25% and 30% fat intake in your diet, your protein is at about 1.25g per LB(2,5g/KG) of LEAN BODY MASS. Fill the balance of calories with carbs.

Your diet should be at about 100 calories more than maintenance at the current level to allow for your body to be SLIGHTLY overnourished.

As From above, you want to use some adaptogens to aid and assist you with what you want to do.

Ashwagandha at 300mg 2x daily. Studies have shown that Ashwagandha can raises testosterone levels and lower cortisol levels.

Boron at 10mg a day have had some studies say it will lower SHBG and estrogen, and some studies that have said it isn't the case, for the cost? throw it in, rather be sorted than not.

Tribulis at 500mg/1000mg a day. Old school sexual stimulant, and if you dont want to BANG then you arent going to have kids. Just saying, its apart of the process...thank me later ;)

Mucana Puriens has been to raise dopamine levels and lower progesterone levels which can also raise the feel-good hormones and help balance any hormone imbalances there are.

Staminogro has an insane profile for helping with fertility, you will need to pay with your 3rd unborn child for it, but it is great.

3 other things that I didn't mention: ZINC, MAGNESIUM, CBD

Zinc is known to be deficient in many people, and aids with many metabolic functions.
Magnesium lowers inflammation, and aids with healthy hormone function, and improves insulin sensitivity.
CBD has also been known to lower inflammation, cortisol, and many other cognitive functions too.

This is a shameless plug for a mate of mines product here, but Wild Leaf Infusions make a CBD HOT COCOA, that is infused with Magnesium, Zinc, AND 20mg Of CBD per serving. That combined with a simple sugar that will spike insulin somewhat and aid you with sleep, it is the perfect product for assisting you with what you are going through. It's not badly priced in comparison to most other CBD products, most 200mg tinctures are going to cost you R400 roughly, so this container has 200mg total for R229.95 as it is locally manufactured, can get from www.wildleafinfusions.com

limiting training to 4 days a week will let you recover Better, less inflammation, still allow for you to gain muscle, and have time with family. I don't know if you are currently training in a gym set up due to this POES lockdown but if you are then awesome!

anyway, sorry I didn't get to a full response here yesterday. I am making assumptions of what you are dealing with, and I am shooting in the dark big time, but hey, don't know if you don't try, and gotta try and pull that shotgun approach and hit every topic possible.


So with this you gotta understand that carnivore diet alone may not be a great idea but a balanced diet that contains 30% fats, and adequate protein with carbs that have some response to insulin may be way more beneficial here.

also when was your last cycle and how long did you run your pct for?
Last edit: 01 Jul 2020 08:04 by Empire.

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01 Jul 2020 11:23 #222758 by Bench86
Replied by Bench86 on topic Advice on bloods and actions
Thanks Empire. I have never done a cycle, but have tried doing a pct protocol before (clomid+nolvadex) on advice from this group (about 8 years ago).

My test results were done before I went onto carnivore diet. I wanted to see if it could help me shed weight as I really struggle in that department (probably also in part due to low T, but the two are interdependent).

My thinking was to try this diet, use an HCG protocol with AI's to sort any excess estrogen amd try and get my weight down and natural testosterone production up. And then go for a test again to see if it helped any.

I am a bit afraid of going on TRT because it is a long term solution and I would need medical exemption to participate in sport events. I thought I'd try something to get natural T up first before taking that avenue.

Perhaps I should see an endocrinologist. Not sure if there are any suggestions on a doctor that specialises in these type of issues in the Jhb area.

Will look into the supplements you mentioned too. I'm not currently taking Boron but I am on a ZMA supplement, fish oil, multi-vitamin and additional Vit D and C.

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01 Jul 2020 11:51 - 01 Jul 2020 11:59 #222759 by 00pump
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When I was struggling with fertility with my daughter I contacted Doctori and he suggested I add a high dose of longifolia to my already comprehensive PCT.

I would not use HCG on its own as it will push estrogen through the roof, you need to combine an AI and majority of the Drs use Arimidex due to ease of administration.

Test levels will drop after you stop using HCG, but should be well elevated past your current readings. An endocrinologist is going to use this approach for at least 3 months. You are going to be using the AI to actually boost natural testosterone levels, you want to lower your E2 levels to around 55 to get a boost in testosterone level production some Drs will work at around 60, it depends on who you see and their experience with recovery.

But out of interest why not run PCT 3?

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Last edit: 01 Jul 2020 11:59 by 00pump.

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01 Jul 2020 12:56 #222760 by Empire
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for you i would figure out your calorie intake currently, i would then split that up 2.5g of protein per Kg of body weight, and 30 to 35% of your calories from fats and then the balance from carbs, work your way up to maintenance level calories over a period of 5 to 6 week to limit fat gain.

i recon pulling up that calorie intake would be a great idea, then adding in some of the herbals i suggested. you can run tamoxifen(Nolvadex) at 20mg a day for 30 days, which will probably help with boosting your levels up too.

as I explained in the previous post of mine, sub maintenance level calories will cause adaptions in the body, but you probably have found that your diet hasn't been on par with what it should be. also how often are you doing your strength training? and how long is each session etc?

there are quite a few times that I see people start to loose weight when they increase their daily calories as this sparks metabolic rate but in the case of many people, more calories make them satiated more so they are less likely to overeat calories when satisfied.

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01 Jul 2020 13:24 #222761 by Bench86
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Thanks 00pump.

Would PCT2 not be sufficient? Or would adding Aromasin have benefit for me? I thought of PCT2 because I am not coming off a cycle.

Would admin be able to refer me to Doctori? Will look into the longifolia, however fertility doesn't seem to be an issue.

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01 Jul 2020 13:28 - 01 Jul 2020 13:30 #222762 by 00pump
Replied by 00pump on topic Advice on bloods and actions

Bench86 wrote: Thanks 00pump.

Would PCT2 not be sufficient? Or would adding Aromasin have benefit for me? I thought of PCT2 because I am not coming off a cycle.

Would admin be able to refer me to Doctori? Will look into the longifolia, however fertility doesn't seem to be an issue.


PCT 3 because you are targeting recovery from 3 different mechanism of action. HCG, Aromasin and Nolva. PCT 3 has nothing to do with coming off a cycle, it's got to do with trying to recovery your testosterone levels as best you can. I don't see why you would need to contact him seeing his protocol is available right here for you.

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Last edit: 01 Jul 2020 13:30 by 00pump.

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01 Jul 2020 13:28 #222763 by Bench86
Replied by Bench86 on topic Advice on bloods and actions
Strength training is 4 sessions a week. Squat, bench and deadlift with accessories. Program is typically a 10-12 week program with deload weeks included. Sessions are 1.5 to 2.5 hours.

I need to add some HIIT training but haven't been able to due to workload (both job related and strength training)

Empire wrote: for you i would figure out your calorie intake currently, i would then split that up 2.5g of protein per Kg of body weight, and 30 to 35% of your calories from fats and then the balance from carbs, work your way up to maintenance level calories over a period of 5 to 6 week to limit fat gain.

i recon pulling up that calorie intake would be a great idea, then adding in some of the herbals i suggested. you can run tamoxifen(Nolvadex) at 20mg a day for 30 days, which will probably help with boosting your levels up too.

as I explained in the previous post of mine, sub maintenance level calories will cause adaptions in the body, but you probably have found that your diet hasn't been on par with what it should be. also how often are you doing your strength training? and how long is each session etc?

there are quite a few times that I see people start to loose weight when they increase their daily calories as this sparks metabolic rate but in the case of many people, more calories make them satiated more so they are less likely to overeat calories when satisfied.


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01 Jul 2020 13:43 #222764 by Bench86
Replied by Bench86 on topic Advice on bloods and actions
Ah ok, got you. Are there any safety concerns by using two AI's simultaneously? Can estrogen levels drop too low? Would you recommend I do bloods again while on the protocol to assess?


Thanks for the info.

00pump wrote:

Bench86 wrote: Thanks 00pump.

Would PCT2 not be sufficient? Or would adding Aromasin have benefit for me? I thought of PCT2 because I am not coming off a cycle.

Would admin be able to refer me to Doctori? Will look into the longifolia, however fertility doesn't seem to be an issue.


PCT 3 because you are targeting recovery from 3 different mechanism of action. HCG, Aromasin and Nolva. PCT 3 has nothing to do with coming off a cycle, it's got to do with trying to recovery your testosterone levels as best you can. I don't see why you would need to contact him seeing his protocol is available right here for you.


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