Creatine + Hairloss. New SA study

Check it out...recent study from Stellenbosch says creatine increases DHT (DHT causes hairloss)

"Clinical Journal of Sport Medicine
Issue: Volume 19(5), September 2009, pg. 399-404

Three Weeks of Creatine Monohydrate Supplementation Affects Dihydrotestosterone to Testosterone Ratio in College-Aged Rugby Players

Abstract

Objective: This study investigated resting concentrations of selected androgens after 3 weeks of creatine supplementation in male rugby players. It was hypothesized that the ratio of dihydrotestosterone (DHT, a biologically more active androgen) to testosterone (T) would change with creatine supplementation.

Design: Double-blind placebo-controlled crossover study with a 6-week washout period.

Setting: Rugby Institute in South Africa.

Participants: College-aged rugby players (n = 20) volunteered for the study, which took place during the competitive season.

Interventions: Subjects loaded with creatine (25 g/day creatine with 25 g/day glucose) or placebo (50 g/day glucose) for 7 days followed by 14 days of maintenance (5 g/day creatine with 25 g/day glucose or 30 g/day glucose placebo).

Main Outcome Measures: Serum T and DHT were measured and ratio calculated at baseline and after 7 days and 21 days of creatine supplementation (or placebo). Body composition measurements were taken at each time point.

Results: After 7 days of creatine loading, or a further 14 days of creatine maintenance dose, serum T levels did not change. However, levels of DHT increased by 56% after 7 days of creatine loading and remained 40% above baseline after 14 days maintenance (P < 0.001). The ratio of DHT:T also increased by 36% after 7 days creatine supplementation and remained elevated by 22% after the maintenance dose (P < 0.01).

Oh well. That sucks...

At least creatine never affected my hairline. But then neither did the gear really.

I'll see if I can read the paper in the morning...

I see from the link provided that the paper is not freely accessible to the general public so I downloaded and included the full text for all you normal, general publical people if anyone wishes to read it...

Its part of the camp that has sprung up suggesteing the positive effects of creatine on muscle mass and body composition are because of changes on hormone profiles.

Previous studies showed slight increases in testosterone and growth hormone with creatine supplementation when compared to placebo following training. This paper does show a slight increase in test (although not statistically significant), but more importantly show a huge increase in DHT. They suggest that this increased conversion of testosterone to DHT is partially the mechanism for creatines positive effects.
They also warn of possible negative side effects after long term creatine induced DHT elevation.

Interestingly DHT is higher following loading doses than it is following maintainance doses, so it seems this elevation is dose responsive.
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Interesting stuff-never heard of that before.

Funnily enough, I've always found my skin seems to break out a little on creatine, esp during loading.

Inja wrote:

I see from the link provided that the paper is not freely accessible to the general public so I downloaded and included the full text for all you normal, general publical people if anyone wishes to read it...

(File Removed)

Thanks Inja, I must say since I started Creatine and gymming about a year ago my hair has thinned greatly and hairline has receded rapidly.

I get blood tests regularly and my TST is through the roof. I'm going to find out if Pathcare can test DHT as well.

This is another reason I want to start HGH to promote more hairgrowth. I've also started using Minoxidil (Rogaine foam) and Keto (Niz shampoo), these are anti-DHT and should stop the loss.

Hmmm... Not sure hair regrowth is the best thing to use HGH for... Also not sure you should be using HGH if you only been at gym for a year. We can continue this discussion on the other thread though so as not to highjack your original topic.

More on topic, after a years gyming and creatine usage your test levels will rise as a result, but hairline shouldn't really thin...
How old are you?
What brand are you using?
Hmmm... If your hair is going like this you are probably just very genetically prone and I'm afraid you might have to just accept it.

Inja wrote:

More on topic, after a years gyming and creatine usage your test levels will rise as a result, but hairline shouldn't really thin...
How old are you?
What brand are you using?
Hmmm... If your hair is going like this you are probably just very genetically prone and I'm afraid you might have to just accept it.

I'm 30, but never had issues with hair thinning or MBP before I started gym. I won't accept anything as unachievable. All you need is research and logic.

Rogaine Foam is the brand I use (import direct from the states because you cant get it here). They sell Regaine here (Minoxidil) but its not the foam version and is shit. Also Nizoral (chemical ketokonazole) shampoo also import. That regimen is the best.

I've researched it a fuckload. OK I lie you can use Propecia (chemical name finasteride) for even better results, but then you asking for major trouble. It can seriously fuck up your hormones permanently.

Yes for someone not using steroids finasteride will stuff up the libido, by eliminating DHT. However I think its pretty necessary for the rest of us that are on gear.

I use a much cheaper brand of ketoconazole shampoo called Kez. You can purchase it locally for much cheaper than niz shampoo. Its also 20mg ketoconazole per gram shampoo.
I just use it as a precaution altough I don't really have hairloss issues.

Inja wrote:

Yes for someone not using steroids finasteride will stuff up the libido, by eliminating DHT. However I think its pretty necessary for the rest of us that are on gear.

Interesting..So is your theory that if you use Fin and your DHT levels aren't high then you at greater risk?

If that's the case, then maybe I'll try Fin but only if I can measure DHT levels.

Do you have numbers? TST and DHT levels ? You track it?

Woah.. quite a bit of anti-fin stuff online: www.propeciahelp.com/forum/
www.propeciasideeffects.com/

Finasteride will reduce DHT levels by stopping conversion of testosterone to DHT by 5 alpha reductase. So if you're not using gear and using finasteride there is a chance that you can drop your androgen levels too low and you can suffer libido sides.

BTW finasteride might not help with the creatine problem. If the testosterone levels didn't increase significantly but the DHT levels did, it means the androgen isn't totally coming from 5 alpha reductase of testosterone, much in the same way finasteride is useless against dht reduced compounds such as winny, masteron, proviron and halotestin.

Topical spiro is supposed to be quite good at combatting MPB on a topical level as well.

Or save up for hair transplants-will be cheaper in long run

superk79 wrote:

Interesting..So is your theory that if you use Fin and your DHT levels aren't high then you at greater risk?

If that's the case, then maybe I'll try Fin but only if I can measure DHT levels.

Do you have numbers? TST and DHT levels ? You track it?

You can measure DHT with blood work.
My hormones are all within normal the normal range when I am off cycle, of course Testosterone and DHT are both highly elevated when I am using steroids.
I'm not saying run and use the finasteride because your DHT levels are probably not greatly elevated. Remember finasteride reduces total body DHT, and if there is not enough DHT to start with there will be none left to stimulate sexual function.
Stick to the topical aplications if they are helping.
What I am saying is that for the rest of us who use steroids and have very high levels of DHT in our bodies, finasteride is a must, because with high systemic levels of DHT we risk many other things besides just hairloss.
I was also bringing this to your attention because I think steroids might be better suited to your goals than HGH as I mentioned in the other thread..

Yohimbe wrote:

If the testosterone levels didn't increase significantly but the DHT levels did, it means the androgen isn't totally coming from 5 alpha reductase of testosterone.

:ohmy:
Well then if DiHydroTestosterone (DHT) is not being formed by the reduction of testosterone where exactly do you feel its coming from. Testosterone can be reduced in several ways but the considerable bulk is from the enzyme 5-alpha reductase which forms DHT.
Testosterone levels can remain constant even in the advent that 5-AR activity or expression is increased. More than likely estrogen levels will also drop in this instance.

Inja wrote:

Yohimbe wrote:

If the testosterone levels didn't increase significantly but the DHT levels did, it means the androgen isn't totally coming from 5 alpha reductase of testosterone.

:ohmy:
Well then if DiHydroTestosterone (DHT) is not being formed by the reduction of testosterone where exactly do you feel its coming from. Testosterone can be reduced in several ways but the considerable bulk is from the enzyme 5-alpha reductase which forms DHT.

Increased androgen receptor binding. Might not be increased activity of 5 alpha reductase causing elevated DHT, but increased binding to the receptor sites. If this is the case finasteride's effect will be marginalised as you're not treating the source of the increase in DHT.

1)
How do you propose that creatine is able to increase one molecules (DHT) affinity for its target protein (androgen recptor) without altering the molecule?

2)
How do you explain the measurable elevation of serum DHT with better recpetor binding? Even if DHT was magically binding better to the receptor (perhaps through some receptor conformational change however unlikely this magic scenario is) then why would this elevate serum DHT (produce more DHT molecules) and where would these molecule be increasingly produced if not from 5-AR?

First of all, you throwing them big words at me I am gonna take that as disrespect. Second... :rotfl

Yes I am bored and just talking kak.

Inja wrote:

1)
How do you propose that creatine is able to increase one molecules (DHT) affinity for its target protein (androgen recptor) without altering the molecule?

This is all pure speculation and no one knows based on one study, but there are many ways shown to increase androgen receptors or upregulate androgen receptors (L-Carnitine-L-Tartrate increases and up regulates androgen receptors, even eletrical shock treatment has shown it) so creatine doing the same is no more outrageous than it increasing 5 alpha reductase activity.
The fact testerone remains the same but dht increases shows it's not a simple factor increase as with injecting testosterone and consequent higer conversion to DHT. So finasteride might not do the trick, whereas increased testosterone levels, it will as it's following a proven mechanism
Inja wrote:

1)
2)
How do you explain the measurable elevation of serum DHT with better recpetor binding? Even if DHT was magically binding better to the receptor (perhaps through some receptor conformational change however unlikely this magic scenario is) then why would this elevate serum DHT (produce more DHT molecules) and where would these molecule be increasingly produced if not from 5-AR?

Not saying DHT is not produced by 5 alpha reductase, saying increased androgen level may not be related to increased 5 alpha reductase activity, but from increased receptor actvity

superk79 wrote:

Inja wrote:

More on topic, after a years gyming and creatine usage your test levels will rise as a result, but hairline shouldn't really thin...
How old are you?
What brand are you using?
Hmmm... If your hair is going like this you are probably just very genetically prone and I'm afraid you might have to just accept it.

I'm 30, but never had issues with hair thinning or MBP before I started gym. I won't accept anything as unachievable. All you need is research and logic.

Rogaine Foam is the brand I use (import direct from the states because you cant get it here). They sell Regaine here (Minoxidil) but its not the foam version and is shit. Also Nizoral (chemical ketokonazole) shampoo also import. That regimen is the best.

I've researched it a fuckload. OK I lie you can use Propecia (chemical name finasteride) for even better results, but then you asking for major trouble. It can seriously fuck up your hormones permanently.

Regaine = shit..id like to differ with you buddy both the regaine sold commericially in SA and the stuff in the states sold as Rogaine has minoxidil as the active agent. So there is no way that the one can be categorized as being shit as the only differnce between the two is their topical application. Regarding nizoral, its only pushed on the other US websites as being great for hairloss as its so widely availabe there. Niz, Nizorelle and the kez shampoo all contain ketokonazole which will the same way nizoral does...but hey to each his own

Yohimbe wrote:

Inja wrote:

1)
How do you propose that creatine is able to increase one molecules (DHT) affinity for its target protein (androgen recptor) without altering the molecule?

This is all pure speculation and no one knows based on one study, but there are many ways shown to increase androgen receptors or upregulate androgen receptors (L-Carnitine-L-Tartrate increases and up regulates androgen receptors, even eletrical shock treatment has shown it) so creatine doing the same is no more outrageous than it increasing 5 alpha reductase activity.
The fact testerone remains the same but dht increases shows it's not a simple factor increase as with injecting testosterone and consequent higer conversion to DHT. So finasteride might not do the trick, whereas increased testosterone levels, it will as it's following a proven mechanism
Inja wrote:

1)
2)
How do you explain the measurable elevation of serum DHT with better recpetor binding? Even if DHT was magically binding better to the receptor (perhaps through some receptor conformational change however unlikely this magic scenario is) then why would this elevate serum DHT (produce more DHT molecules) and where would these molecule be increasingly produced if not from 5-AR?

Not saying DHT is not produced by 5 alpha reductase, saying increased androgen level may not be related to increased 5 alpha reductase activity, but from increased receptor actvity

No dude, you are still talking shit.
You are explaining one thing with something completely unrelated.

Increased androgen receptors allows for a low or normal level of serum DHT to still have the same or increased effect. But this does not account for actual increase in serum DHT. The DHT that is being shown in excess in the blood tests still has to come from somewhere, and this source is 5-AR. You keep going on about upregulating activity or expressionof the androgen receptor blah blah blah but this has nothing to do with increasing DHT levels. Which is what we are talking about here!
:rules

garra wrote:

Regaine = shit..id like to differ with you buddy both the regaine sold commericially in SA and the stuff in the states sold as Rogaine has minoxidil as the active agent. So there is no way that the one can be categorized as being shit as the only differnce between the two is their topical application. Regarding nizoral, its only pushed on the other US websites as being great for hairloss as its so widely availabe there. Niz, Nizorelle and the kez shampoo all contain ketokonazole which will the same way nizoral does...but hey to each his own

I know they both Minox boet. Let me elaborate

= shit means: The topical application of regaine/rogaine vs rogaine foam. The foam was a breakthrough for minox users in that its very easy to apply, is not greasy and dries in minutes.In studies it has shown to have twice the efficacy vs the liquid. It's truly awesome stuff and took me a long time to work out how to get it into the country.

Regarding keto, you right, any shampoo with it in will work fine, I'm just snobbish and prefer to go with known quality since Niz invented it and the studies were all done on Niz.

Hope that clears up the confusion.

Inja wrote:

Yohimbe wrote:

Inja wrote:

1)
How do you propose that creatine is able to increase one molecules (DHT) affinity for its target protein (androgen recptor) without altering the molecule?

This is all pure speculation and no one knows based on one study, but there are many ways shown to increase androgen receptors or upregulate androgen receptors (L-Carnitine-L-Tartrate increases and up regulates androgen receptors, even eletrical shock treatment has shown it) so creatine doing the same is no more outrageous than it increasing 5 alpha reductase activity.
The fact testerone remains the same but dht increases shows it's not a simple factor increase as with injecting testosterone and consequent higer conversion to DHT. So finasteride might not do the trick, whereas increased testosterone levels, it will as it's following a proven mechanism
Inja wrote:

1)
2)
How do you explain the measurable elevation of serum DHT with better recpetor binding? Even if DHT was magically binding better to the receptor (perhaps through some receptor conformational change however unlikely this magic scenario is) then why would this elevate serum DHT (produce more DHT molecules) and where would these molecule be increasingly produced if not from 5-AR?

Not saying DHT is not produced by 5 alpha reductase, saying increased androgen level may not be related to increased 5 alpha reductase activity, but from increased receptor actvity

No dude, you are still talking shit.
You are explaining one thing with something completely unrelated.

Increased androgen receptors allows for a low or normal level of serum DHT to still have the same or increased effect. But this does not account for actual increase in serum DHT. The DHT that is being shown in excess in the blood tests still has to come from somewhere, and this source is 5-AR. You keep going on about upregulating activity or expressionof the androgen receptor blah blah blah but this has nothing to do with increasing DHT levels. Which is what we are talking about here!
:rules

The argument is redundant anyway as neither of us know the reason for the increase in DHT.
But I disagree with what you are saying. Androgen receptors affect the serum levels of DHT.
Spironolactone is a potent anti androgen and works by competing at the androgen receptor sites with testosterone and DHT. It's impact on androgens is from competition at the androgen receptor sites
acne.about.com/od/acnetreatments/a/spironolactone.htm

Yet it has a siginficant impact on the serum levels of DHT and testosterone
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3950464

In the same way an increase in androgen receptors will increase serum DHT levels

No bro, you are still talking shit...

Spiro may bind the androgen receptors and this effect in the pituitary results in lowered test and DHT, but if we use the same scenario for increasing serum DHT (as you are suggesting with creatine) then the signal to produce more testosterone and DHT from the pituitary would still have to be played out via 5-AR. Because the DHT still needs to come from the 5-AR enzyme, regardless of where the signal for DHT originated from...


:fighting

Inja wrote:

No bro, you are still talking shit...

Spiro may bind the androgen receptors and this effect in the pituitary results in lowered test and DHT, but if we use the same scenario for increasing serum DHT (as you are suggesting with creatine) then the signal to produce more testosterone and DHT from the pituitary would still have to be played out via 5-AR. Because the DHT still needs to come from the 5-AR enzyme, regardless of where the signal for DHT originated from...


:fighting

I'm not disputing that DHT comes from 5 alpha reductase of testosterone, I'm saying the serum levels of DHT are affected by the binding to the AR.

An increase in AR will result in higher DHT levels. Just as with spiro competing at the receptor causes a decrease in serum DHT. It effectively means there are less AR for the DHT to bind to. Doesn't affect the conversion of test to DHT.

Tests have been done on bald men vs full haired men and the bald headed men had higher number of androgen receptors in the scalp, meaning they have more DHT in the scalp causing the baldness.
www.bio-medicine.org/medicine-news/Bald-head-bad-health-396-1/

This is a genetic thing, but the point is androgen receptors affect DHT levels.

All I was saying in my original post is that the increase in serum DHT MIGHT not be caused by the increased activity of 5 alpha reductase, but by increase in androgen receptors and finasteride may not be the solution if this is the case.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

No, this is where you are wrong and the reason this whole thing started.
Finasteride will still help in this case, because the molecule causing the problem is still DHT. So regardless of what the mechanism is that is causing the elevation of DHT in the body by blocking 5-AR you stop DHT production, and without a DHT factory I don't give a hoot how many receptors you have you will not get DHT related side effects.

I think we will just have to agree on that point.

my personal experience with creatine tells me hair loss from creatine is bullshit. I have been using it for years and my barber has known me for years too....once a month...same cut...same length... :silly: