When to consider starting a cycle

Hi everyone. I've been reading a lot of what's been said here for the last two months or so and I'm posting this due to the helpful advice that I've seen being given by some very knowledgeable folk.

I am turning 25 soon and have been lifting for about 4 years. This means that I haven't reached my natural, genetic potential yet. I only weigh about 80kgs, 6ft. +- 12% bodyfat.

Although I lift for the sake of lifting and its benefits in terms of better life quality, better bone density, stronger back, stronger everything, mental energy, dopamine, all those things, etc. there's also the element of physical appeal. I want to be bigger, more defined, have a wider figure (even be more intimidating - hey, I'm just being honest).

I'm surrounded by younger guys going haywire on the juice, seemingly without any proper protocol, but they are making the progress I'm wishing I could make half of.

In other words, yes, a part of me is longing for a shortcut - I do not wish to compete, only to become a much stronger version than myself.
So yes, I'm considering starting a cycle. But I'm just checking if my motivation therefore isn't lacking some sound judgement. I'd rather be reproved here, than be regretful later.

Dankie bulle!

Flazhen wrote: Hi everyone. I've been reading a lot of what's been said here for the last two months or so and I'm posting this due to the helpful advice that I've seen being given by some very knowledgeable folk.

I am turning 25 soon and have been lifting for about 4 years. This means that I haven't reached my natural, genetic potential yet. I only weigh about 80kgs, 6ft. +- 12% bodyfat.

Although I lift for the sake of lifting and its benefits in terms of better life quality, better bone density, stronger back, stronger everything, mental energy, dopamine, all those things, etc. there's also the element of physical appeal. I want to be bigger, more defined, have a wider figure (even be more intimidating - hey, I'm just being honest).

I'm surrounded by younger guys going haywire on the juice, seemingly without any proper protocol, but they are making the progress I'm wishing I could make half of.

In other words, yes, a part of me is longing for a shortcut - I do not wish to compete, only to become a much stronger version than myself.
So yes, I'm considering starting a cycle. But I'm just checking if my motivation therefore isn't lacking some sound judgement. I'd rather be reproved here, than be regretful later.

Dankie bulle!

Nice honestly. You old enough to be on a cycle. Have you looked at the beginner cycles on the site ?

I don't see an issue with your age if that's what you worried about, myself and I'm sure a lot of others started a lot sooner... how is your diet etc? That's going to be a big factor in current progress as well as when you on a cycle.

Cycle on breh! Nothing wrong with your motivation.

Just keep on doing your homework about gear, and always ask questions if you are unsure.

Take a peak at the Beginner Bulking Cycle, but replace Dbol with Tbol and add Winstrol to the bridge. Cycle results will be so cash!

Shots for the speedy replies. I have indeed looked at the beginner cycles. I've read all the articles, stickies and I've also delved quite deeply into the relevant forum posts. This site quickly became my favourite. Oh, and the rules... I've read them twice..

The guide on the Primobolan & Proviron stack piqued my interest, but the price (R) made me reconsider.
I think the best bet would be put on the Test Cyp beginners bulking cycle. I'm looking to stick as close to the basics as possible + there's quite a few people on this forum who've done it so there's quite recent anecdotal advice available. I'm following qalaqu's thread closely!

Pertaining to my diet - it's not spot on YET. I'm thoroughly aware of macro-nutrients, calorie-counting, caloric partitioning, etc. (I'm actually a fan of Martin Berkhan's intermittent fasting protocol - just personal preference). I guess it's the difference between knowing what to do and actually doing it consistently.

Pertaining to my training - I've recently gone through a few GATVOL phases of life, and training has been slightly neglected. But this was just February. I always aim for crazy intensity, intelligent modification and progressive overload with the focus being on good 'ol compound movements.

PoisonedPulse wrote: I don't see an issue with your age if that's what you worried about,

I've actually heard many sites encourage people only to turn to anabolics after coming close to one's genetic potential. Basically, if you're not prepared to train up till this point, you're not really worthy of it and you're considering it for all the wrong reasons. I mean, I know that in my case I'll still be making gains if I continue training naturally. It'd just be so great if I could take it to the next level.

Furk wrote: Just keep on doing your homework about gear, and always ask questions if you are unsure.

Take a peak at the Beginner Bulking Cycle, but replace Dbol with Tbol and add Winstrol to the bridge. Cycle results will be so cash!

I'll definitely keep reading, thanks man. In fact, I'm probably gonna be digging into this for a couple of more weeks before I'll make a purchase.
Quite interested in swapping the Dbol with the Tbol. That's actually something I'd be more inclined to do. At about 40mg ed?

What would happen if I opt not to add Winstrol to the bridge and instead just wait for PCT? - genuinely curious. I've read that during PCT some people start feeling quite crap (especially with Clomid, but the period prior to PCT?

Thanks for the replies!

Most honest post i ever read.

Good luck and smash that first cycle.

Flazhen wrote: Pertaining to my diet - it's not spot on YET. I'm thoroughly aware of macro-nutrients, calorie-counting, caloric partitioning, etc. (I'm actually a fan of Martin Berkhan's intermittent fasting protocol - just personal preference). I guess it's the difference between knowing what to do and actually doing it consistently.

Big fan of Intermittent Fasting, and Martin Berkhan is a very "no bullshit" guy. Thumbs up from me. Depending what your daily schedule looks like you might benefit more from John Kiefer's "Carb Backloading" approach, you probably don't need to read the entire book as it gets technical. Point is, calculate your macros and split them to prioritize post-training recovery.

Flazhen wrote: What would happen if I opt not to add Winstrol to the bridge and instead just wait for PCT? - genuinely curious. I've read that during PCT some people start feeling quite crap (especially with Clomid, but the period prior to PCT?

Yeah in the range of 40-60mg Tbol would be fine. You're going to have to rephrase your winstrol question. Do you mean that you don't want to add Winny in the bridge at all? Or, you make it sound like you want to do Winny in your PCT? Let me just clear both up.
1) If you want to use no anabolics in your bridge-period, that is fine also. You'll still have your last shot of Test Cyp in your system.
2) PCT is a period where we use chemicals for two reasons only: assist the body to get it's natural testosterone system back on track, and to provide yourself with protection against estrogen side-effects that surface in this period due to estrogen rebound. HCG in/near the end of your cycle will also be greatly beneficial.

Hope I answered your query properly mate. Have a good one.

Okay perfect! Lol, had a nice laugh when I reread my post - quite ambiguous. I was referring to point 1). Thanks for the help.

You can also swap the Testosterone Cypionate with Testosterone Enanthate

Would recommend a test cycle.

Did one in September, it was my first cycle. Honestly, I don't think you need any orals yet, a good old test c/e cycle will put nice mass on you.

It's also easier dialing in your e levels on a test only cycle, because orals like dbol will effect your levels. I did use sdrol, but didn't like it, however around the 6 week mark that test made me strong as hell.

I recommend using asomasin, but keeping letro on hand just in case your nips act up.

Other than that, nothing to add, everyone else already said everything important.

But it's your decision mate, you can use anything you like and I'm not against using dbol first cycle at all

Rooi Bul 86 wrote: You can also swap the Testosterone Cypionate with Testosterone Enanthate

Stout! Dankie Rooi Bul. Die verskil tussen Test C en E is mos baie klein? Ek sal bietjie my opsies oorweeg. Het jy ook enige opinie rakende Tbol vs Dbol saam met die bg.?

T.o.v. aromasin en al daai dinge moet ek nog eers verder opswot. Daar's net soveel anti-dit en AI-dit en klomp alternatiewe wat soortgelyk is, maar tog heelwat subtiele verskille het. En dis VREK belangrik, so ek wil dit eers mooi 'click'. Ek het al op posts gesien dat die lede hierso sterk ten gunste van Aromasin teenoor iets soos bv. Arimidex is, maar sukkel bietjie om dit op te spoor. Vir eers kan ek wel behoorlik daaroor oplees en dieper in die forum in delf.

DruOmedra wrote: Did one in September, it was my first cycle. Honestly, I don't think you need any orals yet, a good old test c/e cycle will put nice mass on you.

Man, firstly, how was it? Did you perhaps make a log/post thereof? Are you prone to hairloss?

When it comes to orals, I don't really have a fixed opinion. Guess only those with experience on the matter can really know how it helps or effects them. It would make sense to do some frontloading if the orals have a great influence - i'll find out about that! Thanks! I've read that Tbol binds to SHBG and frees up more Test, which theoretically makes for better synergy when combined with exogenous Test.

I recommend using asomasin, but keeping letro on hand just in case your nips act up.

I'm having trouble sourcing aromasin, but I've stil got a lot of time ahead of me before I start. I'll definitely have all the necessaries on hand before doing anything.

Thanks for the help

Hairloss is generally a genetic thing, some people are prone to it, some people aren't. Bostin Loyd is a good example of this, he runs grams of gear every week for years and has a full head of hair. Personally, my hair was unaffected by test, I'd be willing to say that a low dose like 500mg for 12~ weeks shouldn't wreck your hair much at all. I have thin hair, so I would have noticed any loss really fast. One way to check, is look at your father and grandparents and when they started balding/if they balded at all.

I do have a log, but it's nothing special. It can be summarized in one sentence lol; Got hella stronger (+25 kg's on BP), had no side effects at all, didn't gain a ton of weight, but about 7.3 kg's which is decent, but i'd heard of people gaining 10-15 kg's yoh. PCT kinda sucked, but that's to be expected. Honestly, my cycle went so well I felt like I was natural and just getting randomly stronger lol.

I did however utilize MK 677, for about 4 weeks, just to try it.

You afraid of needles? I recommend drawing with a 20g and pinning with a 23-25g. Sometimes the size of the syringe itself also affects your pin, I found with 5ml syringes I can barely get any pressure on the plunger, but with a smaller, 3ml syringe it's so easy, like 25 seconds and my pin is done. I think it's got to do with leverages and stuff. My first pin was with a 23g in the glute and it did hurt lol. I since moved on to smaller gauges though to try and limit scar tissue/PIP and I preferred that tbh. Even if you accidentally pin subcutaneously, your body will still absorb the hormone. Just be very hygienic etc, because an infection can be dangerous. However, if you see redness around the shot within 24-48 hours, it could just be irritation from the substance - I encountered this a few times and was worried it might be infected, but it never was.

Hell you can even inject with an insulin needle, it's great for EOD pins if you're using a fast acting ester.

Well if Adex + Letro is all you can get a hold of, you can still use that - I simply used Asin because it was recommended to me and have no experience with Adex.

Hi Flazhen.

I second Furk to replace the Dbol with Tbol. The gains are not as dramatic as Dbol but Dbol gains are mostly water so easy come easy go.



Aromasin is the king of Anti Estrogens for various reasons. You don't get Estrogen rebound like you do with all the others. It does not negatively impact cholesterol like the others do. And on those two alone the extra expense is worth the while for me...

Oh and yes I also pin all my gear with Insulin Syringes less scar tissue. Drawing up is slow and a bitch but the injections are smooth and not that slow.

Hi guys. Hope all is well!

I have managed to source Aromasin.
My decision is also to opt for Turinabol instead of the Dbols.
I'm also going with Test Cyp.
Basically the beginner bulking cycle. (also following the recommendation of HCG 5000IU)

Now, would it be necessary to make sure I have something like Lethrozole/Arimidex on hand if I already have Aromasin?

Since this is my first exposure to anabolics I am unaware of sensitivity to gyno, etc. Would rather be safe than sorry - but in your opinion, if I'm using Aromasin, (with nolva+clomid), am I still lacking something?

For PCT I'm going to be following the dosages of protocol number 3

Many thanks!

Final details are looking as follows, any advice greatly welcome:

Day 1 - 25 -- 40mg Turinabol ED
Day 1 - 77 -- Testocyp 250 E4D (Day 1, day 5, day 9, andsoforth)
HCG to be introduced from Week 3, 250IU twice a week

I'm getting Aromasin as well -

[1]: I've seen various recommendations on Aromasin. Sometimes people start using it from the start of their cycle right up and through their PCT's. Sometimes, people are told to wait until signs of gyno-sensitivity before using it. Or, alternatively it gets introduced from week 3, a tablet every 3rd day, right up untill PCT (not through it). Any recommendations in regards to this?

PCT:
From day 106 - 1x50mg Clomid for 14 days
From day 113 - 1x20mg Nolvadex up till day 142
This means Clomid and Nolva overlaps for 7 days, is this O.K?

I've also seen some people steer clear of Clomid.
[2]: Is this just a personal preference?
[3]: Is it advised?
[4]: Should I be getting something like Lethro as well?



So in summary I'll be getting:

2 x TestoCyp 250mg PGW
1 x Turinabol 20mg - 50caps LP
1 x HCG 5000iu
1 x Aromasin 20mg - 30caps LP
1 x Clomid 50mg - 15caps LP
1 x Nolvadex 20mg - 30caps LP

Thanks for any help.

hey buddy, the nolva should only start once the clomid is done. there shouldn't be overlapping at all.
so nolva only starts on day 120

i know you keeping it simple, but have you thought of adding an oral for your bridge as well?
maybe go with tbol again or use something like anavar?

Hi man. Aah yes that makes sense. I've seen people varying between 50mg Clomid twice a day for a week or 50mg ED for 2weeks. Wasn't sure if that would have an effect on when I introduce Nolva.

I actually have thought about that, but I'm not sure how to approach it in the light of this being my first cycle. I'm sortof hesitant to introduce too many compounds, but I've also heard that some Anavar during bridge would be awesome. The other alternative would to rather use T-bol or Var during bridge instead of kicker. Hmmm

hopefully some of the more experienced guys can give more info as to swapping the kicker to a bridge instead.

i do remember someone (think it was 00pump or muscle addict) who mentioned they prefer a bridge.from what i understood we are just being impatient and use a kicker to feel immediate effects while waiting for long esters to kick in, whereas the bridge would make more sense as our test levels are declining while we wait for the ester to clear our system. during this period it would make sense to keep our levels up with an oral while we wait for PCT

EDIT: when the experienced person reads this, if i misunderstood please feel free to correct me in the understanding i had