Third cycle assistance

Hey guys

I've been using the information on articles and the forum here for some time, but am looking for some advice on putting together my third cycle.

Stats
Male
Age: 39
Height: 179cm
Weight: 80kgs
BF%: about 14%

Background
I've been weight lifting since I was 25, and have done two previous cycles, both for 12 weeks excluding PCT.
Always had slender build and was the poster boy for skinny kids before I started training. I generally eat clean, on maintenance calories (or a slight deficit when cutting) outside being on any gear. Rarely drink much alcohol, never had any BP, cholesterol or blood sugar issues and had bloods done after both my previous cycles.

Previous AAS use:
First cycle (age 32), I did a modified version of the sample beginner cycle:

• Day 1-25 Dianabol 40mg
• Week 1-12: Test Cyp 500mg EW (250mg E5D)
• Week 6 - 16: HCG 250ui twice a week
• Week 10 to 3 days before pct: Anavar 60mg/day
• PCT: Clomid (100mg x 7 days), Nolva (20mg x 28 days)

This took me from 72kgs to 85kgs eating clean in a surplus, training a 5 day split. The side effects felt manageable (mainly oilier skin with occasional back/shoulder acne, some hair shedding). Stabilised around 82kgs post cycle and it seemed my body had tolerated it reasonably well and it gave me gains I've mostly held on to since then.

Second cycle (age 36) I listened to someone who was telling people to run higher dosage Test and Tren combos on their first cycles - sigh....

• Week 1-12: Test Blend 600mg EW, Tren En 200mg EW
• Week 6 - 16: HCG 250ui twice a week
• PCT: Clomid (100mg x 7 days), Nolva (20mg x 28 days)

Started out at around 81kgs and got to around 91kgs but had a crap load more bloating/water retention, side effects were nasty, and generally felt horrible compared to the first cycle. Gains felt very unsustainable/balloon like by comparison, and turns out reverting to around 80-82kgs baseline after that depending on whether i'm in surplus/deficit.

Goal for this cycle:

• Lean muscle & strength gain (vs. ballooning/maximising size) - holding on to as much as possible afterwards
• Try to minimise side effects as much as possible (particularly hair loss as male pattern baldness is a thing in my family)

Guidelines I had in mind :

• 3mg test/KG/week
• Keep to a max of 10mg total anabolics per KG of bodyweight /week
• Cycle for 12 weeks

Proposed cycle:
Based on the feedback on various other guys' cycle proposals I thought I should go with a test cyp / masteron based cycle.
To my best understanding it would reduce a lot of the issues I had with the second cycle, in that the test cyp dosage would be much lower, and there should (hopefully) be fewer side effects.

• Day 1 - 25: Turinabol 40mg (to kickstart while the longer acting esters ramp up)
• Week 1 - 12: Test Cyp 250mg EW
• Week 1 - 4: Mast En 200mg EW
• Week 5 - 8: Mast En 250mg EW
• Week 9 - 12: Mast En 300mg EW
• Week 11 - 16: Anavar 40mg/day (to bridge to 3 days before PCT)
• Week 7 - 16: HCG 250ui twice a week
• PCT (36 days after last pin = start of week 17): Clomid (100mg x 7 days), Nolva (20mg x 28 days)

Main Questions

• Should I consider something else (like primo) instead of the masteron?
• Comments on the dosages? On my calculations this takes me from about 9.12 mg/kg to a max of 10,37 mg/kg (week 9) on 80kgs body weight, but assuming that will be more by week 9 I should be staying under the 10mg/kg guideline
• Any advice on training? I've been on a sort-of bro 5-day split since my last change-up, rotating one day in for a 6 day training week but am thinking to change this to a 2 or 3 day upper/lower split and hit everything at least twice a week for this cycle
• PCT: I've read some suggestions to rather do Clomid x 50mg x 14 days (vs 100mg x 7 days), would this be beneficial?

Would really appreciate any comments or suggestions.

www.anabolicsteroids.co.za/forum/cycle-d...and-deca-tbol#229284

I pretty much designed a cycle based on very similar circumstances in this thread above, if you are prone to MPB Dhts are going to be an issue, some people shed hair on masteron like a cancer patient, some people do the same with Primo, i shed quite a bit with primo, and i predominantly use primo all my courses.

as someone who is skinny, you can get away with some water-retentive substances such as NPP/Deca, as long as your diet is controlled you won't balloon up and retain a mass amount of water. Also, test will be controlled too so you won't have excess estrogen issues.

Should I consider something else (like primo) instead of the masteron? Yes as above Deca, would be a better idea.

Comments on the dosages? On my calculations this takes me from about 9.12 mg/kg to a max of 10,37 mg/kg (week 9) on 80kgs body weight, but assuming that will be more by week 9 I should be staying under the 10mg/kg guideline

That dosing is fine but I would titrate the dosing up and hold on for 15-16 weeks on course, more so than coming off at week 12.

Any advice on training? I've been on a sort-of bro 5-day split since my last change-up, rotating one day in for a 6 day training week but am thinking to change this to a 2 or 3 day upper/lower split and hit everything at least twice a week for this cycle

it's more about how much volume are you doing over the week and splitting it amongst all 8 body parts and then figuring out recovery as well as what works for you, I personally like the upper-lower split, 4x a week training. I do it personally. But some people want more Volume, so Push Pull Legs, Upper, Lower allows for a bit more volume per muscle group per session.

Thanks Empire!

The linked cycle post was very helpful. So the main changes being: up cycle to 16 weeks, drop the tbol, combo with NPP/deca instead of mast. 

If I understood the titrating dosage and switch from NPP to deca correctly, it would be something like:
Start:     250mg test cyp, 200mg NPP (5.6mg/kg)
Week 3: 250mg test cyp, 250mg NPP (6.25mg/kg)
Week 5: 250mg test cyp, 150mg NPP, 165mg Deca (7mg/kg)
Week 6 - 16: 250mg test cyp, 330mg Deca (7,25mg/kg)
Add: Anavar for 8 weeks @ 30mg (gets me to 9,8mg/kg)

On the Anavar - would it be better to run it concurrently with the others, or start it later to bridge the wait to PCT?  
(8 weeks total means a roughly 2 weeks overlap given the 45 day wait)
 

Well if you don't run it concurrently you dont get to 9.8mg per kg per week as you are not taking in 9.8mg of exogenous hormones per week.

Remember just because you arent injecting doesnt mean you cant use other things in that bridge period to illict growth eg injectable carnatine, insulin, growth hormone, clenbuterol. Those are all non androgen based growth factors that will allow you to continue to grow whilst waiting to do PCT. But looking at your age you potentially would be a candidate for long term trt and no amount of pct is going to bounce you to gear like levels of testosterone in the blood. SO LONG TERM STRATEGY, Would be medical trt(1mg per kg) or sports trt(2-3mg per kg) that way you wouldnt do a pct.

I was actually chatting to LesDoctor about 6 days ago, he has been off of trt for about a year now as his focus is on fertility and he didnt do any real pct rather let levels taper off naturally and took time to bounce back and they were in the high range of normal, but he is also under the age of 30.

Understood - would be somewhat counter productive to not be concurrent. 
I guess the main question would be if I needed to look at TRT instead of PCT.

Wanted to get a better baseline as my last bloods were now a couple of year ago.
Got these today - any thoughts on where this puts me?

E2: 85 pmol/L (40 - 161 pmol/L)
TT: 21.7 nmol/L (Ref says > 12nmol/L)
FT: 305 pmol/L (180 - 739 pmol/L)
SHBG: 62.40 nmol/L (11.1 - 78.1 nmol/L)
FSH: 3.8 U/L (1.0 - 12.0 U/L)
LH: 3.6 U/L (0.6 - 12.1 U/L)

Looks like it to me. Most docs wouldn't put you on trt as it isnt near the 180 mark. But i know how shit that level feels, so 2mg per would out you close to 650-700 range making you feel a whole lot better.

Yeah my doc would probably not be convinced. 

So post cycle would be maintain at 160mg and monitor the blood work?

What i would do(aka what i do personally) is after a course, 2iu of gh 5 days on 2 days off. 0.5mcg per kg of clen for 5 weeks and then 1.0mcg of clen per kg for another 5 weeks. Low dose of insulin pre and post workout, 500mg metoformin and i run 2.5mg of test per kg(im over a 100kgs so 250mg cyp a week is my amount) and i run that for 10 weeks, then get blood work done. Remember im a competing bidy builder, but depending on your budget you could run that year round and continually grow and make progress without a lot of strain on the body due to the low androgen load.

Obviously nutrtion is in tact and training style changes in that 10 weeks(lower volume, strength based work) but thats i would structure it.

Zerodefect wrote:

E2: 85 pmol/L (40 - 161 pmol/L)
TT: 21.7 nmol/L (Ref says > 12nmol/L)
FT: 305 pmol/L (180 - 739 pmol/L)
SHBG: 62.40 nmol/L (11.1 - 78.1 nmol/L)
FSH: 3.8 U/L (1.0 - 12.0 U/L)
LH: 3.6 U/L (0.6 - 12.1 U/L)

You really don't need TRT. You're aren't a competitive lifter or bodybuilder. It's not worth it with those numbers. 21,7 is over 600ng/dlL. There's nothing wrong with your natural T production.

It's your SHBG that's the issue if we are nitpicking. Free T is not reliable to use to determine if you need TRT as it's not measured directly. The major factor in determining your Free T is SHBG levels which you can bring down naturally with diet and supplementation. 

Just by adding in some Tongkat ali would put you over 700 Total T.

Thanks MA, I didn't fully understand the relationship between free/total T and SHBG before.
Makes sense to give it a go and see if I can get my SHBG down from where it is.

Zerodefect wrote:

Thanks MA, I didn't fully understand the relationship between free/total T and SHBG before.
Makes sense to give it a go and see if I can get my SHBG down from where it is.

It's dirt cheap as well. Give it a go.

Hey Empire, quick question. Why the addition of the deca to this cycle? To my understanding he wants to stay away from the harsher stuff like the 19 nor hence opting for masteron or primo. Is it really necessary for him to substitute the masteron with deca? Can't he just cut out the masteron/primo and run test only? From what I get, he wants to still keep it simple and safe with minimal side effects and personally i think adding deca does the opposite of that.
my personal opinion would be to run a cycle similar to his first and he probably did the right thing by eliminating dbol from the cycle and changing to somethin like tbol.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious as it's always a learning curve for me as well. 

Also, interesting stuff on his blood. I should test again and see where I'm currently at. If I'm around the low 300 mark it could possibly relate to how I've been feeling lately. Thanks to Empire and MA for always sharing their vast experience and knowledge.

Try to minimise side effects as much as possible (particularly hair loss as male pattern baldness is a thing in my family)


Deca is pretty hair friendly, masteron or primo can make people shed hair like chemo patients.

And you can still create lean gains with npp and deca, he is a smaller guy so the cellular swelling that comes from the deca would be needed.

And to take your concerns even further.

Doing test at high doses would have other effects, such as increased thickening of the blood, potential e2 issues, and also conversion to dht which could possibly do the same thing to hair line. So that is why we limit test to a certain amount.