EQ/PROP/WINNY/TREN Cycle help

Inja wrote:

Sorry, I know this makes four posts in a row, but as an afterthought if one is taking high levels of Deca or Tren and is really concerned with progesterone related HPTA shut down affecting their recovery then the simplest answer is simply to use bromocriptine or caber on cycle. Choosing clomid instead of kessar for PCT will not help with recovery.

Inja you keep going on about Kessar being better than clomid for PCT , can you please provide some links to studies backing this up so I could read through them.
Thanks

Sure bro. I'm at my gf's tonight (texting off my mobile) but should get home late tomorrow. When I do I'll start looking through my papers. Which I guess should take a while in itself.

I'm at my gf's tonight (texting off my mobile)

O dear....relationship going through a bad patch?!?:laugh: :laugh:

I have over 2gigs of scientific papers on my computer and I'm struggling to find what I'm looking for, and have a lot of other work to do. So what I've done instead is to use a couple of quick searches on the internet to find information to help illustrate my point. Sorry I cannot provide a more detailed literature review. Perhaps when I am finished writing my current paper I will have more time to look for these old pdf's.

First let me say that I am not alone, Doctari (a respected member of this forum) has also stated in one of his PCT threads that kessar is more potent, milligram for milligram, than clomid. The most commonly quoted reference used for this statement is one originally quoted by William Llewellyn. Llewellyn is a regarded as somewhat of an expert on steroid use and is the author of the Anabolics series (Anabolics 2006 is downloadable from this sight I believe), and one of the people that advocates the use of kessar over clomid during PCT. Originally in 1972 Wieland et al. showed clomid was able to raise serum testosterone in shut down men. The paper quoted by Llewellyn (Vermeulen and Comhaire, 1978) reports that 20mg of kessar is able to raise testosterone levels with the same efficacy as 150mg clomid. This is the basis for the statement 20mg kessar = 150mg clomid. The paper is no longer available from an online publisher but I can request to have it sent to me again if once you've read the abstract you decide you would like to read further.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/640052

The most important piece of the kessar vs. clomid debate is about to follow…
The greater potency of kessar can be explained by its stronger binding to the estrogen receptor, which is well documented in more modern papers. For instance I found a freely available article you can access www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10746941 . In this article they measure the IC50 of kessar and clomid with respect to the estrogen receptor (Table 3), showing that kessar was able to bind the estrogen receptor 2.25X more potently than clomid. You may think that this means 20mg kessar exerts the same effect as 50mg clomid (which in itself would make kessar more cost effective), but you must remember that tighter binding at the molecular level will often translate to a much greater physiological effect, accounting for the 20mg = 150mg stated above.
Although kessar (C26H29NO) and clomid (C26H29ClNO) are structurally very similar (and thus perform the same function) there are small structural differences influencing their ability to bind the estrogen receptors (and thus their efficacy at performing these tasks). Links to their structures are below…
pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary...d=2733526&loc=ec_rcs
pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/summary/summary...d=1548955&loc=ec_rcs

Indeed this greater potency is reflected by the use of clomid by both bodybuilders and scientists to treat hypogonadism. Traditionally one will be administered 50-150mg clomid or 20-40mg tamoxifen a day to increase testicular volume and sperm count (by increasing testosterone). A quick search on google will show you that generally concentrations of 100-150mg clomid / 20-40mg kessar are used for short instances while 50mg clomid / 20mg kessar are used for extremely long periods to achieve this goal. You will know this as well from PCT protocols that have been handed to you before.
In fact google will also provide you with lots of research in women (where SERMs are more actively used) reporting kessar as much more efficient in raising LH levels as clomid. This is important in men as it is this raise in LH that is responsible for the raise in testosterone.

In part the reduced efficacy of clomid is due to the fact that it is made up of two compounds (~38% zuclomiphene, 62% enclomiphene). Zuclomiphene is actually mildly estrogenic and can be suppressive on the HPTA. In addition is has a longer half life than enclomiphene. humupd.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/6/3/212 . The estrogenic effects in the pituitary are another reason commonly used to explain the use of kessar over clomid post cycle.

So why would you want to use something that is more potent in your PCT protocol?
1) The cost implication. Even if 50mg clomid was as good as kessar in raising testosterone levels, that would mean spending around R600 on 30 50mg tabs of clomid, as opposed to R200 on 30 20mg tabs of kessar.
2) The health implication. Don't forget that even drugs like kessar and clomid must pass through the liver and be metabolized, producing liver toxicity that is proportional to the amount of compound you are putting into your body. For instance you will agree that putting 20-40mg of one oral steroid into your body will produce far less liver toxic effects than putting 100-150mg of another related oral steroid into your body, even if this second compound is less potent than the first. It is the same with kessar and clomid.
3) Cancer. Yes cancer. Although more research has been done into kessar than clomid, pubmed lists both of them as carcinogenic. This is due to their ability to irreversibly bind DNA and result in transforming mutations. The more of the compound you use, and the more frequently, the greater you put yourself at risk of developing cancer.
4) In addition many users report becoming quite emotional when using clomid, and some experience side effects like visual disturbances and hot flushes. These effects are not reported following kessar use.

This is the basis for why I say kessar is better than clomid for PCT.

At this stage I think it is important to say that most of the studies show very little raise in testosterone. In fact there are studies that show lack of effect on LH and testosterone levels for both clomid and kessar. The most important drug to use in your PCT is HCG! SERMs should be used to prevent the negative feedback from cycle of HCG related estrogen while the HCG kicks the testes into form. In fact use of an AI and HCG on cycle might be the best thing you can do for a positive PCT (although with the HCG you must worry about negative feedback on LH production and desensitization of the testes).

jackrabbit1 wrote:

I'm at my gf's tonight (texting off my mobile)

O dear....relationship going through a bad patch?!?:laugh: :laugh:

:huh:
Oh... Nah she was just takin too long to get dressed cause she's put on a little weight after the season to be merry, and I got a little bored...

Hey guys, ok thanks for the replies so far and I await to see which is better Kessar or clomid

Meantime here is the revised cycle and I need help bigtime with dosages and dates of administering of all PCT drugs in this cycle.

Thanks




EQ PROP/EOD TESTEN WINNY TABS / ED CLOMID KESSAR HCG LETRO
Week1 700 - 450 - - As needed ? ?
Week2 700 - 450 - - As needed ? ?
Week3 350 - 450 - - As needed ? ?
Week4 350 - 450 - - As needed ? ?
Week5 350 - 300 - - As needed ? ?
Week6 350 - 300 - - As needed ? ?
Week7 350 - 300 - - As needed ? ?
Week8 350 - 300 20 - As needed ? ?
Week9 100 20 - As needed ? ?
Week10 100 20 - As needed ? ?
Week11 100 20 Start ? ?
Week12 Start
TOTAL 3500 900 3000

Clomid 5 days @ 100mg 5 days off then 5 days @ 50 mg then 5 days off then 25mg for 5 days?
HCG no idea
LETRO no idea

Shite ok it didn’t line up properly

Its basically
eq
week 1-2 @ 700 mg
week 2-8 @ 350 mg

testen
week 1-4 @ 450 mg
week 4-8 @ 300 mg

Prop
Week 9-11 100 mg EOD

Winny
Week 8-11 20 mg ED

Sorry bro, this thread has run away, I was just trying to make a point on your PCT.

Well I think your dosages jump around too much. Are you at least pinning 2 x a week like Netro suggested? This will help keep your levels more constant. However with this style cycle you are still getting large peaks and dips in your levels.

In addition instead of keeping your levels constant you sort of tapering down... Your dosages are high for the first four weeks when your not gonna get any kick outta your gear, then they get lower when the cycle is really starting to work. I prefer running EQ for 13 weeks to get any benefits out of it cause it tends to kick in later than the test. Teat will really kick in week for while EQ will kick in a week or two later.

Why don't you run 500mg test and 300mg EQ a week. You can front load with 1g test 600mg EQ for the first one or two weeks. I know you say you don't wanna do a mass cycle, but your forgetting the effects of EQ on appetite! EQ is great for mass cycles cause its makes you wanna eat so much. Just keep your diet clean and you'll be fine but effectively this is a mass cycle. You can still swap out to short esters if you want.

As to whether clomid or kessar for PCT, well which is more effective at 150mg vs. 20mg is marginal. But given that exact information and what I've said earlier I think I have shown that kessar is by far the more cost effective, and healthier option.

I would run the letro 0.25mg ED all through your cycle, this will limit your estrogen and keep the cycle lean. You could even start the letro pre-cycle to build reach steady levels. Together with clean diet this is a good lean bulk.

If you swap out for short esters like you mentioned, then start HCG 2 days after your last inject. You can pin 250-500i.u. subQ ED or EOD depending what you are more comfortable with as far as LH desinsitizing goes. I like 250 ED.
Do this for two weeks concurrently with the letro you ran on cycle. Then stop the letro and run whatever SERM you finally chose (clomid or kessar) for 4-6 weeks. With the letro in your cycle I would run kessar at 20mg ED to help overcome the estrogen rebound that occurs when you stop taking letrozole, which occurs because not only do your aromatase enzymes start working again but because letrozole has told your body to make more of them.

Hey Inja

Thanks for the reply bro I really appreciate you taking the time to explain to me

I will be injecting 2 x per week but you said that I shouldn’t taper eq and test.It does not make sense to increase dosages towards the end of the cycle as that will only mean that I will have to wait extra long for PCT, correct me If im wrong?

I think that if I inject higer dosages in the first few weeks then I will see better results in the middle of the cycle (when you do the most growing) am I right?
Sorry just trying to find out everything here :blush:
Im cool with all the other advice, but how many shots of pregnyl will I have to end up taking if I take 250 iu EOD.. isn’t that costly?

Also can I run proviron for the sex drive as my gf gets very emotional when I don’t wanna have sex with her?Or will my libido not be suppressed?

Thanks man,

I think that if I inject higer dosages in the first few weeks then I will see better results in the middle of the cycle (when you do the most growing) am I right?

Yes, but you only need to front load for one or two weeks to get the drug levels up to the max for the dosage you are using. Then run consistent concentrations through the rest of your cycle to keep the drug levels high, but constant. Constant drug levels are important in avoiding unwanted side effects like gyno, and keep your gains consistent. Front load with double the dose you will be using in your cycle.

I will be injecting 2 x per week but you said that I shouldn’t taper eq and test.It does not make sense to increase dosages towards the end of the cycle as that will only mean that I will have to wait extra long for PCT, correct me If im wrong?

I never said increase dosages, just don't taper them. The drugs taper themselves. I understand you wanna switch out to shorter esters, which will cover this waiting period while the drugs are clearing. Then HCG will get your balls firing again while the last remnants of the drugs leave your system. You might wanna run the test a week or two longer than the EQ because of the longer half life of EQ. By the time you finish HCG treatment your natural test levels will be up and there will be no steroids left in your system. Kessar will serve to solidify this correction in your HPTA.

Im cool with all the other advice, but how many shots of pregnyl will I have to end up taking if I take 250 iu EOD.. isn’t that costly?

14days of 250iu ED is 3500iu. Of course it depends on your budget but HCG is the most important part of your PCT. If you have more HCG you can use it on cycle to make your PCT more effective or you can freeze it in an appropriate buffer for your next cycle. I have heard lactated ringers solution is recommended and I plan to try this myself with something similar.

Also can I run proviron for the sex drive as my gf gets very emotional when I don’t wanna have sex with her?Or will my libido not be suppressed?

I am not a fan of proviron during PCT because it can shut you down, which is not what you want when you wanna recover. My gf is the same, and I have never had trouble with libido post cycle, even using Deca (But I am young dumb and full of cum!). If you notice some reduction in drive get some herbals, cialis, and a porno to watch with her…:woohoo:

Thanks for the reply man was a bit worried there lol
Now my question to you, what if I doubled the dose of the injectables?
So 700 mg eq and 600mg Testen a week?Is that overkill Hahaha remember im not a big guy at 1.73 and 72kg or should i just double testen?
Oh I put myself into ketosis for about 3 days now and fat is coming off good ,but im dying of carb deprevation!! Help!

Nah, leave the dosages where they are. They're fine.


If your putting yourself into ketosis why don't you stick to a cutting cycle to help lean out and save the bulker for winter? It will be money better spent.

Personally I don't like ketogenic diets cause they downregulate thyroid function, which is what keeps you lean. They mess with your training too, which is never fun. Rather just go with a low cal diet.

P.S. dig your sig, Arnie is the man

to keep thyroid functioning u can take solals thyroid repair,also kelp tabs and i think selenium will help u... Heat will also keep u running nicely so try get hold of some of that...

Thanks Inja i put myself into Ketosis just to rid myself of 1-2% bf I did loose 2 kg this week but my strength is fine,am going to eat some carbs on the weekend(to keep myself sane) then diet next week again. But when I start in Feb I will up pro to 250 g/ day and carbs to around 200 g- 250 g I will see.

LOL Yeah I have watched “Pumping Iron” about 23 times if im not mistaken.. I also like this quote “… I mean obviously alota ppl look and you and think its strange what you doing to your body, but those are the ppl who don’t really know much about it..i mean its like me going into a car and trying to do a quarter mile in 5 seconds.. for me that’s STRANGE!”

And this one.. “.. Franco is good but he is a child, and when it comes to the day of the contest I am his father, he comes to me for advices”(Note he does say advices lol)

LOL Yeah I have watched “Pumping Iron” about 23 times if im not mistaken..

You and me both bro! I always bang my weight plates together to make them sound more impressive :silly: :laugh: