what to take

Hey all,

I have been training for 4 years, made good gains. I started weighing in at 58kg.

Current Stats:
Height: 171cm
Weight: 78kg
Body Fat%: 7%
Age: 23

I would like to use steroids once and get the absolute most effective gain from this cycle. Weight gain is a priority, but i do not want to sacrifice definition.

Any suggestions regarding products as well as dosages would be appreciated!

In my humble opinion I believe in testosterone cycles the first time around and you can add 20mg p/d for the first four weeks. All the research that i've done indicates that this is the best route to take first time around. This is my opinion and I would love to hear what the other guys have to say.

Sheeeess gained 20kg in 4years and still have a bodyfat% of 7... wish I could do that over the next 4 years !!!
can I ask what age you are?

Yep before we make recomendations we need to hear age,, 20kg in 4 years with no steroids is very good gains,,, especially at such a low b/f

i am 23

You say you want to use steroids once (ya right thats what I told myself too!)Ok 23 years old mmmm... close enough (normally I would say wait till 24-25)My advise to you would be to start on a simple course of only testosterone cypionate for 5-6 weeks at 250-300mg(125-150mg taken 2X week per week) followed by a 3 week PCT(starting 15days after your last shot)It sounds like you have a fast, efficient metabolism so if you keep your eating clean your condition should at least stay the same.I do not believe in starting with these massive multi-product high dosage cycles where you might find good gains but also run the risk of serious sides and do damage that can take a long time to sort out.Also starting out simple leaves a lot of room for advancement-but please before you take this step there is so much info on the net so READ READ READ !!!

Just something biochemistry-wise to consider. We always say to beginners not to use very high testosterone dosages on their first courses. But we also know that you need about 5-10 times the physiological dose of testosterone to really grow. The problem is though, that when you inject, say 300mg testosterone cypionate, that you acually inject alot of that 300mg as ester weight. Infact, to be precise, about 90mg of the 300mg test-cyp dose is of the ester component. This in effect means that you, after the esterase enzyme have chopped off the cypionate ester, only have 210mg testosterone available. And you naturally produce about 60mg test per week. And that after only 2 weeks on cypionate, your testii stop producing its own test in total(with Deca this happens within the first week of just 100mg Deca dose). Now, let's do some maths: After two weeks, you will have to give 60mg of the 210mg available dose to replace your own 60mg. Now you are left with only 150mg test more than your own natural production. That's only 2,5 times more....
And we would atleast need twice that much....
Makes you think, hey!!??
That's why, with a beginner, I would suggest minimum 400mg cypionate or enanthate per week. More advanced user, at the range of 800mg cypionate/enanthate per week.
When you use Testo-prop, you can use less total dosage per week. The propionate ester weighs about 16,3mg per 100mg testo-prop dose, leaving you with about 83,7mg testosterone available per 100mg testo-prop dose.. You can do the math yourself to workout a ± 5 x more than physiological dose.
But here I go again suggesting dosages.....

This is just an interesting, biochemistry fact I wanted to share with you. Can you now understand why some Pro's use 3 gram Testosterone cypionate/enanthate per week?
Let's not even go to the decanoate and undecanoate ester weight.....

I am far from pro,,, and I have used over 3g per week,,, I would probably always use that much if i didn't hate injections so much,,

Testosterone is actually such a safe drug,, you can use ridiculous amounts without causing any damage

I am reckless,, but I also believe anything less than 500mg/wk your wasting your time ,,,,,

I also believe in longer cycles at least 8 to 12 weeks ,,,, your first cycle is going to give you the best results ,, take full advantage...

I would say 8 weeks of 600mg/wk cyp or enanthate is the perfect first cycle... then starting adding other compounds on your future cycles

I am burning to say I fully agree with Batman, but then again I'm suggesting dosages..... Damn, the dilemma of that!!

There are two schools of thought on cycle length, but let's leave that for another day - I type with only one finger and feel I'm getting arthritis after all the info I typed the last week.....

Hey Doc + Batty are you guys members of my old powerlifting club-
D.U.F.L.(Drugged Up For Life) where the clubs motto was 'if in doubt...up the dosage!:silly:
This guys weight is 78kg and you want to start him off on 500mg/week for 8-12 weeks .Listen I'm not the conservative type (Batty I think you know this)but i have to disagree on this point.
I know of quiet a few people who have made good gains on 250mg/week of test cyp for 6 weeks and that was not thier first cycle.(I dont use more than 350mg/week of test myself and I have tried 1000mg/week )now I do understand that not everyone has the same reaction growth wise to anabolics and genetics plays a major role here(some pro's are using 6grams+ a week of test and thats not including the other anabolics-I shit you not!)But these guys are genetic freaks(I mean that in a complimentary way)most trained athletes could not cope with 1/5th that dosage!
Now at 500mg/week where does he go to from there?and for 8-12 weeks ? The human body is a funny thing ,it tends to build an affinity to most drugs taken- start on 100mg and next time you'll need 150mg to get the same results(I'm generalising but you know what I'm getting at).Bodybuilding is a sport where we always looking to improve our bodys,it is progressive in its nature.Where will he be in 2 years time-doing 1500mg/week for 35 weeks(I'm exagerating a bit)I dont think it is essential to push it to the max when starting out ,but that in just my opinion I dont mean to insult or offend anyone

No one is insulted, definitely not me. First you need to start calling my mother names.....

But, back to the test issue. I thought we were talking here of the "first timer" ? First timers in my opinion, should on their first cycles ONLY use test and nothing else. Their next cycles, they start on the SAME test dose and start adding in orals, then the next cycle the SAME test and add in orals and other injectables and so on and on. I was commenting on first time users - in the region of 400mg per week.

Conan, I still grow on low dose testosterone and I'm in my 16'th year of using Gear. But do you currently use only low dose test and nothing else with it? My low dose test cycles are quite complicated if you start looking at what I add into that low dose test cycle..

I was just pointing out a biochemical fact about the content of what we put into our bums! Some people do respond just as good to low doses of test as compared to others that do need to take the higher dosages to obtain the same result. You get 5 litre V8 engines that run on 5-6km to the litre, and then you get the new TATA that will go at 32km to the litre. But both arrive at the same place....

Doc I know I am new on this board and I am not a qualified Doctor , and if I'm even half sounding like a know-it-all that is the last thing I would want or claim to be -I dont know it all-I think I will always consider myself a student in this game,I'm entering my third decade of steroid use and hope that my experiences can be of value and help to people so they can avoid the common,usual mistakes and the mistakes I have made.I respect your position, your point of view and your years of study+experience.

So do I respect your years of experience. Planning to come and visit a couple of my friend in Durban soon - will definitely meet up with you.(Apparently the two of us have some mutual friends)

BTW, I like guys who believe that using the least amount to grow, is the best way to go.

Unfortuanetely, there are a large number of studies that show that the growth on test alone is linear to dosage. Problem is, that these medical studies never take into account the genetic anabolic receptor count of the individuals. This I believe differs quite a bit from person to person. That's why we see some guys gain the same amount of LBM on low dose, where as other again needs much higher doses to achieve the same.

One thing I want to mention : This Board has a hell of a lot of knowledgeable people ! Any newbie that hangs around on this Board will quickly learn the correct information.

I look forward to meeting you Doc,
and I havent said it yet but we are all very lucky to have a forward thinking Doctor(who trains and follows the anabolic lifestyle)in our presence -guys like you ,dont grow on trees!(take it from me I've been looking!!)

Doctari wrote:

One thing I want to mention : This Board has a hell of a lot of knowledgeable people ! Any newbie that hangs around on this Board will quickly learn the correct information.

wer'e-a-listenin!