Winter bulking cycle

Hey everyone, I'm looking for a bit of advice from you.

I'm busy contemplating my next cycle, it's time to get going with the business of getting huge, so a bulk is in order.

I've had good results with deca in the past, so I am deciding to go with that again. Here is what I have settled on so far:

10-week cycle
Deca @ 350mg/week
Test E @ 900mg/week
Frontload with Dbol @ 40mg/day

PCT - will follow Doctari's protocol - Clomid, Kessar, Aromasin and Ovidrel

Now here comes the problem. I have issues with gyno, so I know I will need to control estro while on cycle, especially with the Dbol and the high dose of test.

What would be the best way to control estro without holding back muscle gains while on this cycle? I am thinking about using Proviron and Kessar during the cycle, or maybe Arimidex at 0.5mg EOD. Any ideas?

Also, would it be a good idea to add in some Ovidrel at 500iu's per week during the cycle?

I have found this very usefull after trying to get help on this same problem.These is just a reply on what i have tried myself,if you find it helpful try it.If there is a better explanaton i will also take it in.

SERM – Selective estrogen receptor modulator. These drugs work by binding to the estrogen receptors and flooding them in a sense, making it difficult (but not impossible by any means) for estrogen to bind to the receptors and thus prevent the onset of estrogen related side effects.
Most common forms: Tamoxifen (Nolvadex), Clomiphene (Clomid)
AI – Aromatise Inhibitor. These drugs work by inhibiting the aromatization of estrogen. This means that in effect AI’s prevent androgens from converting to estrogen, again, making it difficult (but not impossible) for estrogen to reach receptor sites.
Most common forms: Anastrozole (l-dex, a-dex), Exemestane (aromasin), Femera (letrozole). For our purpose of reversing gyno we are interested in Letro.

Letro and your sex drive:
Letrozole will suppress your sex drive. This is another reason why it is so important to act on preventing gyno as soon as possible. Since we all know that Test should be run in every cycle this will cancel out the effect of sex drive suppression.

Running letro to prevent gyno:
If you decide to run estrogen protection while on cycle (and I suggest you do unless you are aware that you do not require it), you can run either a SERM or an AI. Letro will be the most powerful AI you can use, it will inhibit 98+% of estrogen using a dose as low as .25mg and even lower. This is why I suggest you do not use a dose higher than .50mg while on cycle just trying to prevent estrogen related side effects.

You will want to start running the letro approximately 2 weeks before you begin your cycle to allow it to fully stabilize in your blood. I have often heard the argument that letro takes up to 60 days to stabilize, I don’t know if I buy into this for the reason that I have reversed gyno after using letro for only 1 week. Still to be safe I recommend starting it before your cycle as stated above.

If you do decide to run letro there is absolutely no need to run another AI or SERM. Do not make the mistake of thinking more is better. Think of it this way; if letro is preventing the conversion of androgens to estrogen than there is no estrogen, what would the purpose of a SERM be when there is no estrogen to bind to the receptors? Nolva will only take away from the effectiveness of letro.

This brings me to my next point. Do not listen to anyone who tells you to bump up your nolvadex to 60+mg ED if you get gyno. I have no idea where this idea started but I have seen it suggest far too many times recently. Nolvadex will do nothing to reverse your gyno…let me make that clear IT WILL DO NOTHING FOR GYNO. If you are running nolva as your anti-e and start to develop gyno than sure you can bump the dosage a small amount to try to prevent it from progressing further, but letrozole must begin ASAP.

It is very important that you begin taking letrozole immediately, the longer your wait the more risk you take in not being able to reverse it.

How do I know if I have gyno?
If you have developed gyno you will have a lump behind your nipple. It will be fairly hard, and it will be tender to touch.

Running letro to reverse gyno:
I am going to go over the three different scenarios which people could fit into. Remember regardless of what scenario you are in it is important that you begin taking the letro ASAP.

1. Already using an anti-e aside from letro.
2. Already using letro @ a dose of .25mg or .50mg ED.
3. Not running any estrogen protection.

1.
Day 1: .25mg Letro + anti-e*
Day 2: .50mg Letro
Day 3: 1.0mg Letro
Day 4: 1.5mg Letro
Day 5: 2.0mg Letro
Day 6: 2.5mg Letro **

2.
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

3.
Day 1: .50mg Letro
Day 2: 1.0mg Letro
Day 3: 1.5mg Letro
Day 4: 2.0mg Letro
Day 5: 2.5mg Letro **

*Regardless of the anti-e you are using it is important to still use it for the first day you begin letro as the letro will not have taken any effect and you by no means want your body to be without any protection when gyno is already prevalent.

** You will remain at this dose until gyno symptoms subside. Once you believe your gyno is gone it is important to stay at this dose for another 4-7 days to ensure all traces are gone. I recommend people with a bf% over 15 stay on for a week as it may be harder to judge completely whether the lump is completely gone. Once this period is over it will be important to taper letro down slowly rather than coming off it completely. Regardless of which manner you tapered up your dose you will all taper down in the same fashion.

Day 1: 2.0mg
Day 2: 1.5mg
Day 3: 1.0mg
Day 4: .50mg***
Day 5: .25mg
***You can remain at this dose or go down further to .25mg. It is really up to you at this point. They are both very common maintenance doses as an anti-e while on cycle. Personally I have stayed with .25mg and never had a problem.

Letro and the estrogen rebound:
With your estrogen being completely inhibited there is a definite estrogen rebound as your body tries to re-stabilize the testosterone:estrogen balance. We can prevent this rebound effect by supplementing further with another AI or SERM. So, I suggest that when you are coming to the end of your cycle you will more than likely be using Nolva in your PCT so just make sure that you begin taking nolva the last day you are going to take your letro and then continue on as you would with regular PCT.

This now leads us into the question of reversing gyno while not on cycle. There are a few things to remember here. You have already waited longer than you should have, and your sex drive will be shot. You can use tribulus or another natural test booster to help you in this scenario but I can’t guarantee the effectiveness. Just follow gyno reversal protocols 2 or 3. When coming off again you must taper and begin using nolvadex to prevent any rebound effect that may occur.

How much nolvadex should you use if you are not going into PCT and running this off cycle? I suggest starting at 20mg ED for a week and then lowering it to 10mg for another week and then coming off completely.

Vin wrote:

Hey everyone, I'm looking for a bit of advice from you.

I'm busy contemplating my next cycle, it's time to get going with the business of getting huge, so a bulk is in order.

I've had good results with deca in the past, so I am deciding to go with that again. Here is what I have settled on so far:

10-week cycle
Deca @ 350mg/week
Test E @ 900mg/week
Frontload with Dbol @ 40mg/day

PCT - will follow Doctari's protocol - Clomid, Kessar, Aromasin and Ovidrel

Now here comes the problem. I have issues with gyno, so I know I will need to control estro while on cycle, especially with the Dbol and the high dose of test.

What would be the best way to control estro without holding back muscle gains while on this cycle? I am thinking about using Proviron and Kessar during the cycle, or maybe Arimidex at 0.5mg EOD. Any ideas?

Also, would it be a good idea to add in some Ovidrel at 500iu's per week during the cycle?

I would run A-Dex 0.5mg ED and from week 6/7 use 40mg Proviron per day up until PCT starts

Good post, creapump, very informative. So, it seems like running letro throughout the cycle would take care of any estrogen issues.

But what I am concerned about is blocking too much estrogen, which will inhibit gains from the cycle.

Did you use this protocol yourself?

That's why I suggested the A-Dex. Leaves enough estrogen circulating. And that article is a pot kak. I have tried it and it doesn't really work. Here is the link of that "post" by creapump.

www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone...ng-letro-femara.html

like i said in the beginning i tried it and it worked for me,as i said if their is something better or more informative, post it so that we can learn from each other and what each one of us tried.

Vin:

Good choice there, its a classic bulker not the biggest deca fan but it does its job. I suggest you do the cycle as i put it below your results will be better. If you want proper results run a winter bulker nice and long! And you have us on the forum for PCT and you already have Doc's protocol in swing so it shouldn't be an issue!

Cycle:
>D-bol, 40mg, ED, Week 1-4.
>Deca, 350mg, split into 2 shots per week, week 1-12.
>Test E, 900mg, split into 2 shots per week, week 1-14.
>Winny OR Proviron, 40mg per day OR 25mg per day respectively, week 14-16.

PCT:
Docs Protocol as you wish.

You can start HCG at around week 6 if you feel the need, 500iu a week should keep you in check because your deca test deficit is nice and big!

Looks good> all the best!

Peace

And the A-dex as Milk suggested>

Also if you are scared of the D-bol at the front you can throw in Proviron there aswel, 25mg ED?? Keep water down etc, few guys have tried it in the frontloading works well>

Peace

Regarding the letro. Any thing over .75mg will kill ur sex drive no matter how much test ur pinning from my personal exp. A-dex is the better choice.

Agree with Mr Moose about the proviron, guys at my gym do it aswell.

i still think that using letro over a-dex on cycle is a bad idea unless u have serious estrogen conversion issues,the letro will 1.) dry u out a shit load more than a-dex 2.) suppress immune system more. 3.)have servere effects on sex drive 4.) destroy your blood lipid profile... use a-dex as it is less harsh,if that doesnt work switch over to letro... thats my opinion really... proviron at 50-75mg a day with a-dex and i am pretty sure u wont have issues with estrogen conversion... now vin have u ever run a test only stack or have u always combined with deca/tren? wondering if its a progesterone based gyno issue...

Thanks for all the input guys, much appreciated! I think that A-dex seems the better choice for the job.

DJ, I have never run a test-only cycle. The gyno issue came about after I competed in 2008. I was running Test E and EQ, and threw in Winny and Tren towards the end. That was the time when Pregnyl was out of stock and we didn't have Ovidrel yet. My PCT was not optimal, and a few months later, the gyno popped up.

I used letro and got most of it squared away. It's not completely gone, still have tiny lumps underneath. I'm worried about this problem recurring, so that's why I want to control the estro while on this bulk. Obviously, I expect to hinder gains a bit while suppressing estro, but looking for the most efficient way to do this.

So A-dex and Proviron looks like it would work. With the A-dex, what would be a better choice: ED or EOD?

I have writen my tests on Letro under the genral tab, Letro how well does it really work... There is no difference in estrogen suppresion over 1mg.. Letro may supress 90+% of estrogen but that is natrual levels, no tests have been done with taking 1+gram of test a week.

I find that letro at 2.5mg a day on 1+ gram of test does nothing for it and I still get gyno related side effects. Letro in my opinion is a load of crap and I can say for certain it does not get rid of gyno only surgery can...

As DJ said above it does loads of damage to the body and very hard to dose.

I would rather use Masteron over Proviron if you want to go this route.

Vin wrote:

Thanks for all the input guys, much appreciated! I think that A-dex seems the better choice for the job.

DJ, I have never run a test-only cycle. The gyno issue came about after I competed in 2008. I was running Test E and EQ, and threw in Winny and Tren towards the end. That was the time when Pregnyl was out of stock and we didn't have Ovidrel yet. My PCT was not optimal, and a few months later, the gyno popped up.

I used letro and got most of it squared away. It's not completely gone, still have tiny lumps underneath. I'm worried about this problem recurring, so that's why I want to control the estro while on this bulk. Obviously, I expect to hinder gains a bit while suppressing estro, but looking for the most efficient way to do this.

So A-dex and Proviron looks like it would work. With the A-dex, what would be a better choice: ED or EOD?

ummm bro can i suggest something,run ur bulking cycle with equi instead of deca,humor me with this,cos u say that u threw in tren being a 19nor and got gyno...did u use kessar in your pct? get hold of some bromocriptine/cabaser/dostinex and see if that gets rid of the gyno,if it does u suffer from the progesterone sides of the 19nor substances...

good points, DJ. Yes, I did use kessar for my pct. I have used bromocriptine together with letro, which reduced the size of the gyno symptoms, but didn't remove it completely.

In February this year I ran a 4-week cutter with clen, T3 and Test Prop @ 100mg EOD. The nipples got quite sensitive during this cycle, but running Kessar took care of that.

Ok, I am considering all options right now, and should come to a final decision sometime today.

One more thing, I have at my disposal a few boxes of Glucophage. Is there any way I could use this in my cycle at all?