Should I stay or should I go.....?

  • Ceej
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26 Jan 2009 13:09 #8922 by Ceej
Hypothetical question:

An oppertunity presents itself to you, the reader of this post, whereby you can leave South Africa to persue a career in your chosen profession abroad. This might or might not include immigration and guaranteed citizenship. This does however present you with a decision to make :

Do I pack up and go, leaving this country behind, possibly family and a familiar environment or do I stay and try and make things work on this side of the border.

The country in question is irrelevant, but take your pick from the Following, US, Canada, UK, Australia, or a variety of other european countries, Bottom line a 1st World Country.

I would like some opinions, to each his own, single or married, with or without kids, family dead or alive.... when and if answering please give a short description of your motivators.


Here is my take on it. I am staying. My parents are still alive. I have siblings which I love and get along with very well. I have 2 sons that love both their sets of grandparents and all their cousins. The same counts for my wife whom I also need to consider.

Am I blind or are things that bad in this country that one would be prepared to leave all this behind?

With regard to excellence, it is not enough to know, but we must try to have and use it.

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  • jackrabbit1
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26 Jan 2009 14:35 #8926 by jackrabbit1
Replied by jackrabbit1 on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
If i were younger(Much younger) - Yes. Kids are flourishing at school and certainly dont have the apartheid era hangups i struggle with.
The problem is that all my buddies that left are'nt comming back and love it in their new countries(Canada/Oz/NZ).
Like one of the girls said: Walking in a park at night, she doesn't even look back hearing someone aproach from behind.
I dont think i'll EVER be able to do that. Damage done.
People dont live 'scared' like we do.

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  • dirkgreeff
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26 Jan 2009 15:24 #8929 by dirkgreeff
Replied by dirkgreeff on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
Ceej ur 30 this year right? still loads of time to establish a life abroad ... let me put it this way, as jack said ... we running scared here. We have an innefective leadership at the top that use their 'struggle' credentials to get rich while the ordinary man stil stays poor. poor people = crime. Im not defending the bastards dont get me wrong but there is some merit to being pushed into a corner in a society where morals is not a top priority anymore. There is no justice and punishment is a joke ... Look im a year younger than you, no kids of my own but my gfrien dof the last 7years have 2 boys (which i raised). Why do we need to live behind bars and live in fear? Ive had a gun shoved in my face, so has the gfriend (in the company of the kids). Your kids might never know what this 'apartheid' thing really was but in the end they will still bear the brunt no matter what. I love my country, i know its history and have family blood on this soil but at some point you must think about your kids first ....

Nothing worth doing is ever easy.

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  • jo1
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26 Jan 2009 17:52 #8948 by jo1
Replied by jo1 on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
hey man juz wait till after the election, coz if the fukers gets a 3d then i thin we should make plans 2 fuk out of 2nd zim!!!

i dont think u will have a choice, coz its already going downhill, and it will only speed up if "they" get what "they" want.

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  • dirkgreeff
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26 Jan 2009 18:00 #8949 by dirkgreeff
Replied by dirkgreeff on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
Seem a bit heated there bud :) let me tell you that my opinion is not just based on emotions ... i travel into Africa on a constant basis, and the same shit just does not happen as frequent and blatant as here. Look there is crime all over the world but violent race fuelled crime is whats ripping us to shreds. I mean a dude doesnt pay his tv license and he is sentenced harder than a murderer? where is the justice in that? Going overseas is not easy but if you have to protect what is dearest to you ... you will survive

Nothing worth doing is ever easy.

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  • Inja
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26 Jan 2009 18:32 #8954 by Inja
Replied by Inja on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
Young, no kids, gf that loves me, very small family, still finishing up post graduate studies.

To be honest I love this country, but I'm leaving first chance I get. I am so happy here, the weather is great etc... etc... But I go to sleep scared for the worst.
I live life for myself right now, and the best decisions are those that offer a long, happy, fulfilling life. The risk of death is just to high here and that is my sole reason for eventually leaving. I will leave everything behind if I have to.

Sorry if I offend you
Its just my point of view

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  • Ceej
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26 Jan 2009 21:50 #8969 by Ceej
Replied by Ceej on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
Everyone who has posted makes a valid point.

Thinking about this, all indicators are to leave. The problem I have with this, besides my previously stated reservations, family etc., is that if all the good people leave this country, literally to the dogs, we are definately becoming a second ZIM. I have to agree that I am very much hopefull that COPE will be able to take away the 2/3 majority the ANC currenlty has which will inevitably bring about a government which can be deemed democratc in nature (MY OPINION HERE). Am I being naive in believing a "few good men" could make a difference?

This is however not the point. In the end as Inja stated, this is my life and my families interests I have to keep in mind. Whether it is unfortunate or not only time will tell but currently the best decision for my situation is to stay. i am aware that oppertunities to leave and build a future abroad do not come knocking everyday but I am fortunate in that the career path I have taken is relatively well sought after internationally. (Telecoms Engineering).

Once again thank you for your responses, I liked having some outside input. I realise time is running out for this country to "kom fokken reg" but when will one have waitied too long? Has time allready run out? Crime is rampant, corruption is the order of the day..... This list could go on forever.... wanneer is genoeg nou genoeg?

As I said, I am holding out for now..... I am just afraid that I might be holding out for too long....

/rant over

With regard to excellence, it is not enough to know, but we must try to have and use it.

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  • Oupiel
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26 Jan 2009 22:23 #8972 by Oupiel
Replied by Oupiel on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
Dude, what you have expressed here is the conflict that is faced by most white South Africans.
I don't know the demographic of this board, but I'm guessing mainly white male.

What I'd like to ask is, does the average black dude think things are rolling along according to plan and that "they" have now inherited the promised land, problems solved.

If I were black, honestly, I'd be embarrassed at what this place has become. I'm sure they would want to FO as well. The new middle class blacks anyway.

All that aside, what do we need to do today, to make tomorrow different from yesterday?
Or as pointed out, is it time to cut our losses and do whats best for our families?

Piss Artist AKA Oupiel

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  • Inja
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27 Jan 2009 08:51 #8977 by Inja
Replied by Inja on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
One interesting point made above is something that I can agree with from being exposed to people from all over the world. No matter how poverty stricken the rest of Africa is, when Kenyans or Nigerians, or Congolese etc come to visit they cannot believe the violence. This level of violent crime seems to be unique to South Africa. I don't know what started it but once a mind set has made its place in a country it becomes very hard to change, one guy learns from another guy learns from his father etc...

I know a lot of African men, and in two separate conversations with two individual Nigerian men I asked what would happen to me as a white man visiting Nigeria. They both gave me the exact same answer, I would be kidnapped and some renowned company (like Shell) would be contacted and requested to pay ransom. For the duration of my captivity I would not be treated well (I am a prisoner) but I would not harmed. And at the end of the day if Shell did not pay I would be released unharmed.
Although it is not a given that any foreigner arriving in S.A. will be kidnapped, I think we can agree that a large majority of them are killed for petty theft. Then there is still the increasing occurance of xenophobic attacks. Given these two options I would much prefer captivity over death.

But its a complicated decision, and even harder when you have kids. Best of luck to you and I hope everything works out accordingly.

Sorry if I offend you
Its just my point of view

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  • dirkgreeff
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27 Jan 2009 08:55 #8978 by dirkgreeff
Replied by dirkgreeff on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
Guys right the statement about making a difference is like finding a teardrop in the ocean ... its gone too far for one or even a few individuals to really have an impact. I mean just look at how they turned on their own kind not too long ago. The 'one bullet one settler' is still very much alive ... and with buddies like Mugabe and his anti-western ideals is just fuelling the already combustable situation. Sure you can live out YOUR live in sandton or centurion or any of the other nice subhurbs but the scenario to be hit can present itself anywhere ... life has no value and killing for fun is what happens around here. Ceej what would you do (God forbid) if something had to happen to your family? once again, im just stating that im not just blowing smoke up your ass ... i know what im talking about. And im not just negative ... my family were farmers, we fought in all the wars (british and border wars) and i love my country ... but tell me what you say after your kids have a gun shoved in their faces and a 6 year old has to go on anti-deps ....

Nothing worth doing is ever easy.

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  • dirkgreeff
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27 Jan 2009 09:00 #8979 by dirkgreeff
Replied by dirkgreeff on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
Inja, ive been to Nigeria and its fairly safe ... you do feel uneasy hearing all the stories but the kidnappings only happen in the Niger delta where the rebels are fighting over the oil ... and its riches thats all. Go to Columbia or Brazil and there you will be nabbed for sure.

Nothing worth doing is ever easy.

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  • Ceej
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27 Jan 2009 11:24 #8989 by Ceej
Replied by Ceej on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
Point taken. I have to date been, extremely it seems, fortunate to have not had first hand experience of this kind of ordeal. Reality now all the more seems to indicate that the only difference between a non-victim and a victim is time.

I do stay in centurion. I do live in a security estate. I do have ADT and my house does have burglar bars. I do not stop at traffic lights after 8PM. I am very aware of my environment each and every time I go out of my house. I trust that I have been able to instill these cautions in my wife too. This however all the more does not seem to be enough....

Maybe I have made the wrong decision. Maybe I have used incorrect weighting of the criteria in my decision making process. It seems to be back to the drawing board for me.

In response to the statements that the rest of africa is less violent. I am not disagreeing but some conflicting evidence exists. Mau-Mau in kenia. Civil war throughout Africa. Attrocities and genocide committed in the DRC, Somalia and Burundi to name but a few.

With regard to excellence, it is not enough to know, but we must try to have and use it.

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  • jo1
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27 Jan 2009 11:43 #8990 by jo1
Replied by jo1 on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
actualy sa could have been a first world class country, but "they" fukitup!!

if u look at the avarage salary in the uk or usa and what gas food etc cost there then one would have more financial freedom in those countries.

for the say 100 or 90 or 80 years u live ul have a much better live, there than here, aa,murder,hijacing,coruption!!

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  • dirkgreeff
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27 Jan 2009 16:28 #9002 by dirkgreeff
Replied by dirkgreeff on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
Ceej, Africa is a rough place but the mentality is different ... Ive been to Kenya, Botswana, Mozambique, Nigeria, Ghana, Malawi, Swaziland, Zambia, Togo, Zim etc and ive nver been scared to go and walk in the streets. You just dont feel threatened. But yes warlords, civil unrest and a real 3rd world mentality still grips the rest of the continent as you said .... and thats not about to change.

Nothing worth doing is ever easy.

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27 Jan 2009 17:32 #9007 by chemical g
Replied by chemical g on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
This is a very tough country to live in for the average person but if you have a good thing going and are making money then this is definately the place to stay. I personally have bought a house in Australia last year and have qualified to go but I have that only as my last option. There is still plenty money to be made in this country. I was in Aus two months ago setting the tenants up in my property and let me tell you things arent that peachie there either. If you have young children or plan on having children then I would suggest you look abroad unless you are making an excellent income where you can afford the best private schooling in this country. Its a tough one but I am going to stay for as long as I can.

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  • jo1
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27 Jan 2009 17:49 #9008 by jo1
Replied by jo1 on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
ya thats true, for a guy earning big bucks, there is no need to go, but for the other guy that with a tight budget, he can think of going, young white males may wna go, theres no future for them here!!

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  • soloR
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27 Jan 2009 22:19 #9032 by soloR
Replied by soloR on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
The South Africa we have right now is a nightmare. If the ANC gets 2/3 in these elections then we're all in trouble. A country lead by a man facing so many criminal charges will have no credibility internationally.

I will have you know that as the average black person, being one myself, is not exactly in paradise. Whether or not it is the Promised Land, as far as I remember, it is a much better place to live than before. The violent crime is out of control (I feel safer in the townships where I grew up than here in the posh side of Grahamstown where I reside while I study), the politics are fucked up (have you heard the recent plans from the Sports Ministry?), and it looks like it'll get worse.

So I am disillusioned and so are most of the young black people I know. But the majority of the black population is poor and uneducated. And have a poor experience of South Africa pre-'94 and for now anything will do. I'm not ashamed to let you know that my mother is one of those people (with just a Std 10 from the times of Bantu education), but she put me through some of the best schools in Gauteng along with my two sisters. So I have something to fight for as one of a relatively small number of well-educated and talented young black people. And as a result I'm looking forward to the change that the younger generations of future politicians WILL bring.

Living in SA is not only tough for white people; it’s tough for all of us. We have different problems but mostly shared ones.

If you don't see a future for yourself as a young white male, I'd suggest you leave already because you won't have a future wherever you go. The Information Systems Honours class at Rhodes last year was mostly white, as is everything here at Rhodes, and the whole class is now employed, those who aren't are furthering they're studies. Young white males have a future in this country, you just have to be talented to get where you want to go. In fact the highest employment offer went to a white guy with a starting salary of over 20k.

Leaving or staying is a tough decision. I think its bit of a gamble, and things will really begin to unfold after this year's election. You also don’t have to leave forever. Take a trip and get some valuable experience. You’ll be highly sought after if you decide to return.

Perhaps my cautious optimism comes from the fact that mine and my girlfriends families were directly involved in the fight for this country’s freedom. And I consider myself a well-adjusted South African with no gripes against white people in spite of the fact that I’ve attended too many funerals in my life (mostly in the late ‘80s) and have had some very bad experiences of white people growing up.
When all is said and done this is the Promised Land for all South Africans. That is not to say that it is not in a sorry state at the moment. That is not to say that I am not disappointed in the people running the country. “They” are the ANC leaders and, whatever or whomever they may represent, don’t for one second think that “they” are representative of all the black people living in this country.

I’m not embarrassed at what this country’s become. My parents did not have the opportunity to educate themselves and take a fair part in the economy. I remember a time when there was no electricity available in my township. I remember taking baths in a big plastic bucket. I remember when there was only bread and tea to eat. I remember how my father built us a new home from the ground up with his own hands. I remember how he started working at FNB as a driver and before he passed away he was one of their best brokers. I have my first degree and my employer is paying for my postgrad studies. My younger sister is studying medicine. My cousins, who were proper dirt poor, all have good jobs and are taking care of their now old and worn-out parents.
I’m only embarrassed that the top politicians are a bunch of clowns and that they still seem to think there’s not that much crime in the country. But from where this country has been, and from the way changes were brought about, I think that it’s not unreasonable to think that there will be positive changes from our current situation. From where I’ve been and where I am now, I certainly believe that there is great change still to come, I’ve seen it with my own young, impressionable eyes, I wait for more still.

As for going or staying, Go my man. But come back soon. It won’t be a waste of your time to explore your industry in another country. Whether you’re going to work in Angola or France, you’ll be better for it. Imagine what you might learn. And if in 3 years or so you find that SA is good enough to come back to, you’d be bringing some unique skills and experience to your industry. I’d go. But I’d come back.

I love this country. We have short memories some of us. I have something to fight for. My enemy now is the conceited and privileged few that call themselves leaders. I hope one day that all South Africans will feel that there is something yet to fight for. For all the kak we have now, you must believe that things will change; they have before you know. Even then when shit was not ideal some people left, and many returned. Others couldn’t and made something of themselves in spite of the difficulty. Go. Go and bring something back. Make your family proud. Ceej, your’s is not so much an opportunity to leave, but more an opportunity to grow. Take it.

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  • Inja
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27 Jan 2009 23:29 #9043 by Inja
Replied by Inja on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
Long post bro, very heartfelt.

I'll tell you this bro if violent crime improves I will return but only then. My life is too important to risk for a country I love, its the most important thing to me.
Your comment about feeling less safe in posh grahamstown as opposed to the townships justifies that.

Truth is as a scientist I don't have much of a future without respect and this is something one gains from attending prestigious institutions. So career wise I have to spend some time overseas very soon.

I am always open minded and I maintain some degree of optimism but I know for fact that even though much of the educated youth would build a great south africa much of the poverty stricken youth cling to violence and neglect. Its something I fear is just to ingrained in the society of this country right now.

But I will give it time while I am overseas and hope for the best...

P.S. Are you an undergraduate or postgraduate?

Sorry if I offend you
Its just my point of view

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  • soloR
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28 Jan 2009 00:37 #9046 by soloR
Replied by soloR on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
Postgrad.

Ultimately we need to be selfish and do what's best for ourselves and our families first. We live in a scary place, no lies.

Chemical experiment in progress....

Eva body wanna be a bodybuilda, but don nobody wanna lif no heavy-ass weight.
Ronny Coleman

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  • Ceej
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28 Jan 2009 07:59 #9051 by Ceej
Replied by Ceej on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
Awesome post SoloR!! No sarcasm. A mindset such as yours is what I was holding out for. For me, in terms of going anly to gain experience abroad and returning, is not really an option. I already have participated in exchange programs on the Orange (France) and Vodafone (UK) networks. I also have numerous networks I have worked on in Africa but the traveling was getting to me, 2 sons, one in school, GR1 this year, makes it very hard being away from home. I also have a fear of flying.

I am also not complaining about my job or the security thereof. I am also earingin a very respectable salary, my last increase put me on R660K a year ex benifits. If you have "pluck" and you are an intelligent individual then employement should not be a problem.

The fear I have, which is starting to motivate me more to leave permanently, is for my wife and my sons. It is undeniable that there is a violent crime problem in SA. I do not think that a specific demographic is being targeted more than another but in the end we all have a risk of becoming victims of violent crime. That is the problem I find in deciding to stay. As long as the current leaders of out country hold their own interests above that of the country this situation is set to remain.

With regard to excellence, it is not enough to know, but we must try to have and use it.

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  • dirkgreeff
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28 Jan 2009 13:17 #9075 by dirkgreeff
Replied by dirkgreeff on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
Ceej at the end of the day dont let anyone tell you what to do, we all have different opinions and if you not sure in your own mind you are setting yourself up for failure (i.e. finding justification in others to either stay or go).

Solo, nice post bud, however, both black and white did what they thought were right during the early years. I'm not justifying the actions of a previous regime but have to point out that there were just as many white funerals (it was a war at the end of the day and is well documented by historians). There were just as many poor whites who could not afford tertiary eductaion for their kids as well as kids leaving school to support their families. And lastly, the white farmers fought just as hard for their freedom against the british in a country they loved .... how many families died in concentration camps (much like hitler's time but no fuss is made about it here). Hence, we all bled for this country and its sad to see it deteriorate like this.

Nothing worth doing is ever easy.

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  • jo1
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28 Jan 2009 15:28 #9083 by jo1
Replied by jo1 on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
anyone can see where sa is going!!! DOWNHILL

but maybe after this years elections things will chance, im very intrested to see whats gona happen, if it turns out for the worst, then i think il go,coz if its becoming a 2nd zim fukit no no, im going!!!

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  • Ceej
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06 Feb 2009 20:09 #9353 by Ceej
Replied by Ceej on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
My mind has been made up by a tragic death in our family.

MY brother was shot and killed on Monday night by armed robbers after responding to a CPF (Community Policing Forum) distress call. One of the neighbourhood watch members, after his son had entered the Mnandi Spar in Centurion and was held up along with the rest of the customers by a band of between 10 and 20 armed robbers, raised the alarm. Outside of the Spar were sentrys posted armed with AK47's. When the CPF guy raised the alarm on the radio one of the perps noticed and shot him in the chest at close range with a handgun. He was fortunate to have had an in and out wound which did not hit any vitals. He then continued to evade 3 attackers ducking and diving around his pickup and a pillar untill another approached from behind him and then tried to shoot him execution style. The gun misfired. The attackers by then had started to flee.

My brother was one of the first CPF guys to arrive. A sentry fired at his Hilux with an AK47. One of the shots hit him in the side of the chest. This went in through his bakkie door, entered under his right arm and out under his left. The bullet continued out the left of his bakkie. He was killed on the spot. This happened around 20h42 Monday Evening. He had not seen the attacker. He had not tried to stop the attacker. He was on his way to help his injured neighbour. He was unarmed, only had a first aid kit on him. He had no intention of apprehending the attackers. There were other members with firearms responsible and teamed to deal with that. He was there to help the injured man. To help. Un fucking provoked. A senseless and tragic killing.

My father called me at 21h00 not aware of his death but only knowing he was shot. My other brother picked me up and we raced to my brothers house. Passing the scene of the crime we wanted to confirm which hospital my brother had been taken to. There we discovered that he had died. When I touched him he was still warm.

He leaves behind a wife of 12 years and a two and a half year old daughter. He would have celebrated his 40th birthday on 28 February. His was married 12 years on the 25th of January.

This has opened my eyes to the inevitability of it all. We are all fucked in this country. Not right away but soon I will be starting to make plans to leave this shit hole. We are being slaughtered like animals while the world watches but turns a fucking blind eye. Another of my brothers stays in Oz. (we ar 4 brothers, or were) His sons walk to school. Unnattended. His wife stays home alone. With the front door open. Only my brother was able to attend the funeral while his wife and my nephews stayed in Oz. Their neighbours held a memorial service for them at the same time the funeral was. This fucksickle of a country can go to fucking hell. One thing is certain, these fuckers will be dead before I leave.

With regard to excellence, it is not enough to know, but we must try to have and use it.

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  • Oupiel
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06 Feb 2009 21:11 #9361 by Oupiel
Replied by Oupiel on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
@ SoloR, I wish I knew more people like you.

BUT, I fear that voting will be based on loyalty not on what will ultimately be best for this country and its people.

Yes our leaders are hopeless & embarrassing, but I'm more ashamed of the masses.
Rape is a national sport, our murder rate is equivalent to a war zone.
The cruelty & brutality of the crimes is unspeakable!
Freedom seems to mean that we are free to behave however we please regardless of who is affected.
Unfortunately the face of this brutality is black & the victims are not only white.

I'm a citizen in a nation of savages and I'm embarrassed!!!! Rainbow nation my ARSE!
Sorry bro, I don't see what you see.

While I'm working; who's raping and traumatising my wife & kids, this is not acceptable.
People that would behave in this manner don't deserve the opportunity that the future might bring.
They do not deserve to be citizens.

Why are these people not being reported to the cops?
Why do their communities protect their identities?
If "they" are only the minority, surely the honest majority would route them out.

WTF???

@ Ceej, Damn sorry to hear of your loss.

Piss Artist AKA Oupiel

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  • jo1
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06 Feb 2009 21:37 #9362 by jo1
Replied by jo1 on topic Should I stay or should I go.....?
elke oggend as ek die beeld lees is daar n wit mens doodgeskiet, deur swart mense!!!

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