Insulin

VonD wrote: using it before a workout has its advantages

Many people swear by IM slin before training... Faster acting and more predictable

Prior to gym and at the same time as proteine shake , depending on wich area it is injected , to avoid insulin spykes an glucose rich drink can be assumed if feelin a bit kak and imediately after workout , post workout shake should be used .

That's what I've heard

Leroux wrote: Prior to gym and at the same time as proteine shake , depending on wich area it is injected , to avoid insulin spykes an glucose rich drink can be assumed if feelin a bit kak and imediately after workout , post workout shake should be used .

That's what I've heard

if used once a day, i would advise to use it post workout...

VonD wrote: using it before a workout has its advantages

Could you elaborate?
Only advantage I can think of now is that if taken with simple carbs then energy would pretty much be immediately available to the working muscles. Maybe add some creatine at this point to take advantage influx of nutrients. This would help in getting more reps out of the training session.
But then why not simply take carbs only before training as this will cause the pancreas to secrete insulin anyway and have the same effect? Or taken during training then the GLUT4 will trans-locate due to the effect of intense contraction and then glucose can be taken up by the cells in the absence of insulin.

Cirus wrote:

VonD wrote: using it before a workout has its advantages

Could you elaborate?
Only advantage I can think of now is that if taken with simple carbs then energy would pretty much be immediately available to the working muscles. Maybe add some creatine at this point to take advantage influx of nutrients. This would help in getting more reps out of the training session.
But then why not simply take carbs only before training as this will cause the pancreas to secrete insulin anyway and have the same effect? Or taken during training then the GLUT4 will trans-locate due to the effect of intense contraction and then glucose can be taken up by the cells in the absence of insulin.

natural insulin secretion would be nowhere near as beneficial as endogenous insulin

Ball wrote: natural insulin secretion would be nowhere near as beneficial as endogenous insulin

:blink: natural insulin is endogenous insulin (originate from within an organism).
Wrong anyway, if there is a mismatch between insulin (endogenous or exogenous) you will either have high blood sugar level or a hypoglycemic event.

Cirus wrote:

Ball wrote: natural insulin secretion would be nowhere near as beneficial as endogenous insulin

:blink: natural insulin is endogenous insulin (originate from within an organism).
Wrong anyway, if there is a mismatch between insulin (endogenous or exogenous) you will either have high blood sugar level or a hypoglycemic event.

Yea I meant exogenous haha...
So are you saying taking in some simple sugars is just as effective as injecting say 15iu of insulin pre workout... I don't see this.

Ball wrote: So are you saying taking in some simple sugars is just as effective as injecting say 15iu of insulin pre workout... I don't see this.

That is exactly what I'm saying.
Yes, you won't see this because you are totally unaware of what your pancreas is doing to keep your blood sugar in the normal range.
Consider a few scenarios:
1) You take 50 g of glucose then your pancreas will secrete enough insulin (say the equivalent of 10 iu) to get the glucose out of the blood and into the cells (predominantly fat & muscle cells). However this amount of pure glucose on an empty stomach will cause a bit of a blood sugar spike as the pancreas releases insulin in a pulsating manner. You will be totally oblivious to this process if all is working well.
2) If you take the 50 g of glucose before training (5 to 10 min) then you would need less insulin (say 6 iu) due to the "insulin effect" of training. This means the same amount of glucose, but less insulin to keep the blood sugar stable.
3) Take 50 g glucose and 5 iu fast acting insulin immediately before training. Now your pancreas would produce less endogenous (natural) insulin to keep the blood sugar sable.
Simply: 50 g glucose + 5 iu exogenous slin + 4 iu from the "insulin effect" of training + 1 iu endogenous slin = stable blood sugar. This means the pancreas will balance the equation if additional insulin is needed after the consumption of glucose and insulin injection.

If you really want to you can get a blood glucose monitor and test this for yourself. If the insulin (endogenous + exogenous) matches the amount of carbs you take in then the meter will indicate that your blood is between 4 - 7 mmol/L.
If you have taken too much insulin then blood sugar concentration < 4 mmol/L
Too little insulin (or too much glucose) then > 7 mmol/L

I understand that you do not "see" how adding extra insulin before training does not provide additional benefit to gaining size. To understand how insulin could aid in gains you would need know the intricate details of how insulin works. This would take a while to explain this to a layman, but if you have any ideas or detailed questions I could try to explain.

Cirus wrote:

Ball wrote: So are you saying taking in some simple sugars is just as effective as injecting say 15iu of insulin pre workout... I don't see this.

That is exactly what I'm saying.
Yes, you won't see this because you are totally unaware of what your pancreas is doing to keep your blood sugar in the normal range.
Consider a few scenarios:
1) You take 50 g of glucose then your pancreas will secrete enough insulin (say the equivalent of 10 iu) to get the glucose out of the blood and into the cells (predominantly fat & muscle cells). However this amount of pure glucose on an empty stomach will cause a bit of a blood sugar spike as the pancreas releases insulin in a pulsating manner. You will be totally oblivious to this process if all is working well.
2) If you take the 50 g of glucose before training (5 to 10 min) then you would need less insulin (say 6 iu) due to the "insulin effect" of training. This means the same amount of glucose, but less insulin to keep the blood sugar stable.
3) Take 50 g glucose and 5 iu fast acting insulin immediately before training. Now your pancreas would produce less endogenous (natural) insulin to keep the blood sugar sable.
Simply: 50 g glucose + 5 iu exogenous slin + 4 iu from the "insulin effect" of training + 1 iu endogenous slin = stable blood sugar. This means the pancreas will balance the equation if additional insulin is needed after the consumption of glucose and insulin injection.

If you really want to you can get a blood glucose monitor and test this for yourself. If the insulin (endogenous + exogenous) matches the amount of carbs you take in then the meter will indicate that your blood is between 4 - 7 mmol/L.
If you have taken too much insulin then blood sugar concentration < 4 mmol/L
Too little insulin (or too much glucose) then > 7 mmol/L

I understand that you do not "see" how adding extra insulin before training does not provide additional benefit to gaining size. To understand how insulin could aid in gains you would need know the intricate details of how insulin works. This would take a while to explain this to a layman, but if you have any ideas or detailed questions I could try to explain.

Learnt something new here, glad i joined this site haha... Nice to learn off other people

Ball wrote: Learnt something new here, glad i joined this site haha... Nice to learn off other people

Sweet.
Some more insight into insulin.
Unlike anabolic steroids, insulin does not have a direct mechanism to increase muscle growth. Since its primary function is to store nutrients it is responsible for the uptake of glucose (only in cells with insulin mediated glucose transporters) and lipids into cells and also aids in the uptake of amino acids. It also stops gluconeogenesis (conversion of triglycerides and amino acids to glucose), autophagy (cell recycling) and lowers cortisol. Thus insulin in isolation is rather an anti-catabolic hormone instead of an anabolic hormone. However this is not the end of the story.

One of insulin's counter hormones is hGH which is one of the primary hormones responsible for lipolysis (fat cells releasing fat to supply energy). Where hGH is used as a signal to the body that it is in a fasted state, insulin does the opposite and signals a fed state. In a natural system this is why insulin and hGH usually have inverse profiles, when one is high the other is low and vice versa. But as we know hGH also regulates growth and specifically muscle growth by increasing IGF. Unlike insulin and hGH, IGF-1 actually induces protein synthesis.

So how can insulin be used to aid in mass gain? Well, if insulin and hGH is elevated simultaneously then nutrient uptake into the cells is high and protein synthesis is increased (due to elevated IGF-1) and therefor allows for increased muscle growth. So insulin should be used in conjunction with hGH to have a significant effect.

But now that IGF is available as an isolated compound and that you only need to take simple carbs to spike the insulin level, is it really worth it taking exogenous hGH an insulin? Or can it simply be replaced with IGF and some glucose? Just a thought.

nah bro if it was as simple as that people would not do slin.

Still an interesting thought.

Thanx for the share cirus!

VonD wrote: nah bro if it was as simple as that people would not do slin.

Can't argue with that, but any ideas on how to complicate it then? And on the other hand people will do anything to grow, not true?

I have studied the effects of insulin for a few years now and failed to obtain lean gains from it alone. One problem I have is that in medical literature it is referred to as an anabolic because it can increase the amount of fat cells and grow fat cells larger. Well technically this makes it anabolic, but still not in the sense we would like to grow.

thats true water gain is also a lot on slin.

referring to lean gains that is difficult diet 100% + high dose hgh and quality hgh not these ugl shit will all contribute and also how well you know your body and how well you apply that knowledge.

i have a few clued up okes who explained it to me and gave me protocols which would cost you a few grand to get so cant really exaggerate on that.

Man, what an informative thread. Following this thread got me thinking about a lot of things, but more focused on IGF-1 ... Where does it fit into the "cycle" of cycling? Natty-AAS-igf-hgh-slin?

Just as anything we put in our bodies, our bodies work on a _balanced_ level, so taking to much of anything will cause the body to suppress it's own need to produce that hormone for example, don't twist my words of "to much" even the smallest amounts our bodies can shut down natural production of some or other element.

Insulin is not something you want to have to manage for the rest of your life, it is one of the most painful things to keep balanced, and not keeping your sugar readings balanced has serve life threatening effects on ones body.

The quickest and easiest is take 1 unit to much and being behind the wheel of a car or just being in a unsafe environment and you start clutching out.

Take 2 units to much and that's the difference between going into a comma and hopefully coming out or not coming out at all.

Start running high for long periods of time and say bye bye eyesight as the higher you run the "thicker" your blood becomes, this causes problems with circulation and puts immense pressure on the heart, this could again without proper multiple times a day management of your sugars you risk losing limbs, etc.

You will _NOT_ see results like you do from steroids on Insulin. This is a fact, regardless how educated you are with the bodies transport system and key elements around how to eat correctly when using Insulin as a non diabetic person. There is no _sure_ way of dosing it and I wouldn't chance it..

End of the day your body is your template and if you want to go this route then by all means it is your decision but not something I would ever recommend, not even to the most educated in the above mentioned areas.

If you are not maxing at on what you could from 10 years of using steroids or being dam sure you could go on to being a professional bodybuilder and in the last 5 years of your training done your time using other hormones like hGH you really have no business using Insulin.

I fully agree with 00Pump however I must also agree with VonD due to the fact that I know many athletes personally who as 00Pump mentioned are seasoned fully experienced and utilised everything from Hgh and other compounds lean already and aged between 34-40 who are well known in this country. They use fairly low doses of slin cycled and pharmagrade GH and remain really lean but experience massive growth in lean muscle mass. Definitely a clear synergy between the use of Gh and Slin with the right Anabolics and correct diet.
I also must state that I think too much Slin and prolonged use ruins physiques, ruins lines, seperation not to mention opens you up to numerous other potential life threatening situations. I never advocate the use of Slin however I also cannot deny its anabolic effects on the body when in the hands of well educated, "Sane" bodybuilders.

Koe007 wrote: I fully agree with 00Pump however I must also agree with VonD due to the fact that I know many athletes personally who as 00Pump mentioned are seasoned fully experienced and utilised everything from Hgh and other compounds lean already and aged between 34-40 who are well known in this country. They use fairly low doses of slin cycled and pharmagrade GH and remain really lean but experience massive growth in lean muscle mass. Definitely a clear synergy between the use of Gh and Slin with the right Anabolics and correct diet.
I also must state that I think too much Slin and prolonged use ruins physiques, ruins lines, seperation not to mention opens you up to numerous other potential life threatening situations. I never advocate the use of Slin however I also cannot deny its anabolic effects on the body when in the hands of well educated, "Sane" bodybuilders.

Koe007 beautifully summed up.. And yes the people you reference understand the ins and outs of Insulin and have made a tactic choice in the use of of insulin to aid in further development.

You 100% correct in destroying your physique when using insulin for prolonged periods of time.. Understand the need for this hormone, everything about it, right down to understanding type 1 diabetes. Then making an educate decision on why you want to use it and you should have a fair understanding by now on the effects you could see and side effects to look out for.

00pump wrote: Just as anything we put in our bodies, our bodies work on a _balanced_ level, so taking to much of anything will cause the body to suppress it's own need to produce that hormone for example, don't twist my words of "to much" even the smallest amounts our bodies can shut down natural production of some or other element.

Insulin is not something you want to have to manage for the rest of your life, it is one of the most painful things to keep balanced, and not keeping your sugar readings balanced has serve life threatening effects on ones body.

The quickest and easiest is take 1 unit to much and being behind the wheel of a car or just being in a unsafe environment and you start clutching out.

Take 2 units to much and that's the difference between going into a comma and hopefully coming out or not coming out at all.

Start running high for long periods of time and say bye bye eyesight as the higher you run the "thicker" your blood becomes, this causes problems with circulation and puts immense pressure on the heart, this could again without proper multiple times a day management of your sugars you risk losing limbs, etc.

You will _NOT_ see results like you do from steroids on Insulin. This is a fact, regardless how educated you are with the bodies transport system and key elements around how to eat correctly when using Insulin as a non diabetic person. There is no _sure_ way of dosing it and I wouldn't chance it..

End of the day your body is your template and if you want to go this route then by all means it is your decision but not something I would ever recommend, not even to the most educated in the above mentioned areas.

If you are not maxing at on what you could from 10 years of using steroids or being dam sure you could go on to being a professional bodybuilder and in the last 5 years of your training done your time using other hormones like hGH you really have no business using Insulin.

Best post I have seen all year! +1

So we all can agree its based on
Strict Diet
Knowledge of slin and how it works in the body
Signs of side effects
And lastly the decision to plan your daily life around your slin usage.
O and lastly to become a true monster :whistle:

Yes ... So if, for some misconstrued reason, I one day decide that I would like to weigh 140kg with 3% BF @1.8m and give Phil Heath a run for his money, THEN I'll probably run slin and also only with evry single smallest variable being accounted and prepared for ... O ja, en natuurlik with the assistance of a physician. Otherwise, not worth the risk IMHO. I.e ...what everyone has said ... :whistle: