hGH

Hi

I would like to find out as much as possible
about hgh for I am interested in doing a cycle
in the future.
IF read so far that it is expensive and u have to
combine with t3.
Is there anyone that know how to use this safely
that can give me advice, I live in small town with crappy gym and nobody that can give advice
on the topic.

thanx

Hi Ninja,
I some info for you, but don't want to post it here cause it comes from another site and don't want to infringe on copy rights etc. Just pop me a mail on EMAIL ADDRESS REMOVED and I will forward you the docs and some sample cycles as well.

Netro:

Medical dosage for growth retardation = 0.006mg/kg or 0.018IU/kg per 24h, given IMI or SC. This is the initial dosage for the first month. Then it can be increased to 0.0125mg/kg or 0.0375IU/kg per 24h. This is the Maximum Medical Dose(MMD). The dosage gets split as a bd dosage(twice daily), usually equal amounts.

OK, now that was the SAFE MMD. The norm for bulking/growth is anything from 2-5IU per day. Some guys use 2IU's per day as a cutting drug, mostly guys use in the region of 4-5IU's. Some Kamakazi's use much more. I now of some athletes using anything from 10 -20IU's per day, but I think this is risky in the long run.

Take for instance a 100kg builder. Initial dosage will be 1,8IU's and MMD 3,75IU's. So, hanging around at 2-5IU's per day, leaves you in the \"safe zone\", and not in the bomb zone!
Another thing to keep in mind is the time of administering HGH. Your natural HGH cycle is diurnal, meaning twice a day - early mornings and during initial hours of deep sleep. So, timing is very crucial. I would suggest 40-50% of your dosage early morning, the evening dosage after training. Then you should have another third natural peak during sleep. Remember that excersize is one of the most potent stimulators of HGH secretion. Second to this, are arginine and leucine. Supplementing with these regularly at your time of HGH administration, can also assist in synergy. Timing the administration of your insulin is even more crucial. This will largely depend on what insulin product you use.

Hope this helps - it is just a general framework and not cast in stone...

Hi

Thanx the more info the better.

Doctari wrote:

Netro:

Medical dosage for growth retardation = 0.006mg/kg or 0.018IU/kg per 24h, given IMI or SC. This is the initial dosage for the first month. Then it can be increased to 0.0125mg/kg or 0.0375IU/kg per 24h. This is the Maximum Medical Dose(MMD). The dosage gets split as a bd dosage(twice daily), usually equal amounts.

OK, now that was the SAFE MMD. The norm for bulking/growth is anything from 2-5IU per day. Some guys use 2IU's per day as a cutting drug, mostly guys use in the region of 4-5IU's. Some Kamakazi's use much more. I now of some athletes using anything from 10 -20IU's per day, but I think this is risky in the long run.

Take for instance a 100kg builder. Initial dosage will be 1,8IU's and MMD 3,75IU's. So, hanging around at 2-5IU's per day, leaves you in the "safe zone", and not in the bomb zone!
Another thing to keep in mind is the time of administering HGH. Your natural HGH cycle is diurnal, meaning twice a day - early mornings and during initial hours of deep sleep. So, timing is very crucial. I would suggest 40-50% of your dosage early morning, the evening dosage after training. Then you should have another third natural peak during sleep. Remember that excersize is one of the most potent stimulators of HGH secretion. Second to this, are arginine and leucine. Supplementing with these regularly at your time of HGH administration, can also assist in synergy. Timing the administration of your insulin is even more crucial. This will largely depend on what insulin product you use.

Hope this helps - it is just a general framework and not cast in stone...

Doctari, If I would like to use GH with Insulin, how much insulin per kg / 24h. Also, what do you think of using GH, Insulin, Test and Deca together in a stack.

I know that Insulin is quite tricky, so if anyone can give some tips as to what should be altered in your diet, it will be appreciated!

Kraz!

GH always works better when used in combination with AAS. Any stack of AAS will assist. Your Test/Deca will do good.

Insulin is very tricky. Apidra, in my opinion, is the best product to use. Timing is essential and there is quite a bit of controvercy as to when to use the insulin. It is not good to administer both at the same time, as insulin breaks down the very important IGF-1 that gets produced in the gut due to HGH metabolism in the liver. You will always need at least 60-100gr of carbs to take when you are using insulin in the region of 8-10IU's.
Insulin works well when you are on HGH and already lean, but if your BF% is on the high side, it will make you fatter.
Just remember, you are not 100+kg's - so, using the same amount than a 100+kg b/builder, is outright dangerous.
With insulin, I feel uncomfortable in suggesting you doses....

Hey everybody, I need some advice please. Doc, I'm pretty sure you may be able to give me some insight here. Anybody else is welcome to share thoughts.

I'm currently running 4iu per day of HGH (KeFei). I'm injecting subcutaneously in the abdomen area. About a day after each injection, the area becomes red, swollen and itchy, rather like a very large mosquito bite. After a few days swelling goes down. It's getting a bit irritating now.

Has anyone else experienced this, and is this something I should be worried about? My injection protocol is good - I use alcohol swabs, and new needles every time.

Im assuming they are providing Bacteriostatic water as the dilutant. You get one with Saline and Benz alcho and one with Benz Alch only. I tent to react to Bacterio with Saline and alc. Could be that...one of those things ure gonna have to live with for now

MxT wrote:

Im assuming they are providing Bacteriostatic water as the dilutant. You get one with Saline and Benz alcho and one with Benz Alch only. I tent to react to Bacterio with Saline and alc. Could be that...one of those things ure gonna have to live with for now

Yeah, a lot of guys complain about this and the culprit usually is Bacteriostatic water.

Hmm, maybe not so...
HGH has a lipolytic effect on fatty tissues. That's why it is better to use IMI injection protocol in the quad area. When used SC in the anterior abdomen, you inject it into brown adipose tissue where it starts breaking down fat cells locally in the injection site - hence the red and painful reaction(adipose cells literally burst). You'll get a very simil;ar reaction with Lipostable injected SC.

I too have experienced this with Kefei ,, But never with Norditropin , Jintropin or Nomatropin

Same here, Batman, I've used Norditropin before with no adverse reactions.

I get what you're saying, Doctari. But the lipolytic effect is something we want, so maybe I should just grin and bear it. It's not unbearable, just irritable.

Thanks for all the input guys!!!

The type I'm meaning, is not what you want - it is very localized, it leaves visible "dinks" under your skin with time...

Doctari ,, how will injecting IM affect the absorbtion ?

Absorbtion will be a bit quicker, HGH is supposed to be IMI(preferable)

Aren't we looking for a more sustained release considering it's short half life? and fragillity

I'm not going to explain why it is better IMI than SC - just too technical. Just believe me, IMI is the proper way.

Well you are a doctor and you spent years studying this stuff, so I guess you would know, but the package insert for Nordi,, and Jin says to inject SC,, I've been Injecting SC for ages,, but if IM is the better way to go I would like to know why,, because I need to do it that way then..

FRom Pubmed


Higher plasma somatomedin A (biological) and C (immunological) levels with sc than with im growth hormone replacement therapy.
Christiansen JS, Kastrup KW, Alberti KG, Petersen KE, Christiansen C, Orskov H.

In a short-term cross-over study the effect of daily sc human growth hormone was compared with that of thrice weekly im treatment. At the end of each 6-week treatment period the 10 growth hormone deficient children were admitted to hospital for evaluation of diurnal plasma levels of hormones and intermediary metabolites. Somatomedin A as well as C levels were higher in 9 of 10 children after sc than after im growth hormone therapy. This may be the basis for previous observations of improved growth after change to sc treatment.

PMID: 3893007 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Ok That is not comparing apples with apples

This One is::

Subcutaneous versus intramuscular growth hormone therapy: growth and acute somatomedin response.
Wilson DM, Baker B, Hintz RL, Rosenfeld RG.

To determine the optimal route of growth hormone administration, a comparison was made of the acute somatomedin response and chronic growth response to either intramuscular or subcutaneous growth hormone in 20 children with growth hormone deficiency. None of the children had received growth hormone for at least 2 weeks prior to their random selection to receive growth hormone by either the subcutaneous (N = 11) or intramuscular (N = 9) route. Plasma samples for determination of levels of insulin-like growth factors I and II (IGF-I and IGF-II) were obtained prior to therapy and 20 hours after the first and fourth of four daily injections of growth hormone. Growth rate and growth hormone antibody levels were determined before and after 6 months of therapy. IGF-I levels tripled in both treatment groups after four days of growth hormone injections, whereas IGF-II levels nearly doubled, with no significant difference between the intramuscular or subcutaneous group. After 6 months of therapy, there was no significant difference in growth rate and only two patients had developed growth hormone antibodies. Both patients and parents expressed a preference for the subcutaneous method. The identical rises in the IGF-I and IGF-II levels following a brief course of either subcutaneous or intramuscular injections of growth hormone, the similar growth rates, the low incidence of antibody development, and the preference for the subcutaneous route all suggest that the subcutaneous route is the method of choice for chronic growth hormone therapy.

PMID: 4034296 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Guess we're both right

This is really interesting. I've always read differing views on HGH administration. Some say SubQ is best, while others say IM is the way to go. When we budget for a course, a huge portion of that cash goes towards HGH, and I'm pretty sure we'd all like to be getting the most value for our money.

So, is HGH more effective when taken SubQ or IM???

The first study compared sc DAILY vs IMI thrice weekly - obvious the outcome will be different. Just read the study closely.
The second study found NO difference. Interestingly, they only compared actual IGF-1 plasma levels, but NOT the response time of ONSET of the production of the IGF-1. HGH denaturates quite quickly after administration - in fact, most of your dosage is broken down in the liver within 20 minutes. THEN only the IGF-1 starts kicking in in the gut. Now something to think about. Why do we in medicine condone the practice of IMI insulin injections in diabetic patients? Most patients first inject their Rapid insulin and then eat 15-30 minutes later when the insulin is active - that, being after SC administration. But when insulin is used IMI the onset is much quicker and hypoglycaemia more relevant.
When you use your HGH IMI, the onset of the metabolism of HGH by the liver will be much quicker and IGF-1 will be available to the receptors in your small intestine surface earlier. But so what??
When your pH in your stomach gets to the level of 4, the pyloric valve opens and digested food gets shunted to the small bowel for IGF-1 to do its work. Now, with solid food, this will take the minimum time of 20 minutes before this happens, but with a protein shake it's much quicker. Your window of opportunity is less in time.

Most Pro's cycle their HGH injections 3-4 x pd with 2IU dosages at a time. They have these done 10-20 minutes before consuming liquid meals.

Bottom line, you can use both methods - just decide what type of food and when you are planning to take it. Then tweak your HGH administration accordingly.
When I'm hungry, I can usually not waite 20-30 minutes for HGH to start working - for that reason I use IMI route.
Then, there is also to remember that HGH has a local growth effect - most Pro's use it for spot-on IMI injections, which they rotate through the day, usually in muscle groups trained earlier on in the day. How this works, I'm not too sure...

Batman, thanks for the two interesting studies - that was a good contribution - the type we would like to see more. Makes us use our Grey Stuff a bit more...

Ah, just remembered reading something on the site-specific growth from HGH IMI injections. It has to do with the production of new Type-1 muscle fibres when HGH is administered site-specific. This apperently happens through stimulation of sattelite cells before the HGH denaturates and gets metabolised. These new Type-1 fibres are then later recruited, and by doing specific types of excersize executions, are then converted into Type-2 fibres - the latter are the reason for increse in muscle size.

yeah,, thats why i said the first study wasn't comparing apples with apples ,,

but it seems from the second study that it makes little difference to plasma levels, on how it's injected ( I was worried you lose some with IM,, but thats obviously not true) So now I can agree with what you say doctari ,, It makes sense.

I am switching to IM today,,,,

Doctari wrote:

Ah, just remembered reading something on the site-specific growth from HGH IMI injections. It has to do with the production of new Type-1 muscle fibres when HGH is administered site-specific. This apperently happens through stimulation of sattelite cells before the HGH denaturates and gets metabolised. These new Type-1 fibres are then later recruited, and by doing specific types of excersize executions, are then converted into Type-2 fibres - the latter are the reason for increse in muscle size.

So Doc, it seems like it would make sense to administer HGH IM into the muscle group that we have just trained. Is there any optimal time-frame for this, does it need to be within a certain number of hours after the workout? I ask this because I train in the evenings, and I normally inject HGH in the mornings before breakfast. So, if I trained delts on Monday night, and I injected the HGH into the delts on Tuesday morning, would it help to stimulate localised growth?

Usually the same day. Try and administer 2IU's at a time. Rather rotate your sites. Don't inject after training immediately - you will have a natural peak in HGH release induced by training. Don't inject before bedtime either - obviously because you have a natural release during the first hour of sleep. Do early morning, but not within 30 - 45min of insulin either - that's counter-productive. If you use arginine+glutamine when waking up in your first shake, rather use your insulin then(if you are stacking it with HGH) and the HGH later, as arginine/glutamine aids in HGH release. Remember that the body normally secretes HGH as a "pulse regime" - very rarily more than 2iu's at a time. Using more than 2IU's at one time will negative feed back loop on your HP-axis.
Just "pulse regime" it through the day - it will give more growth spurges. When children grow, HGH gets released in a pulse fashion at 2IU's at a time 5-7 times a day for about one week - then secretion stops due to negative feedback loop.

Interesting how kids grow and how HGH works for them - why should it be administered differently for adults???????????