14 Year Cycle , Not recovering ! Pls help

Hi boys,

I used to be a member here 14 years ago when doctori was giving out his PCT cycle and advice. 

the last 14 years I was on gear , maybe came off a few months twice or three times. 

the last 4 years I was on TRT and it was prescribed. I did some blood work and my SHBG was 4 and LH and FSH non existent. The dr told me to come off everything. 

I waited the correct amount of time that Doctori pct says to wait after test cyp, I think it was 36 days and then did the advanced PCT . I think it was still too soon , as during and after pct I was still
able to get a hard on. 

1 month later it’s when everting went down. It started getting worse and worse. Sex drive , brain fog , everything you name it ! I tested at 246 Testosterone and then on Friday I tested again at 9!!!!!! Normal is 245 to 800 or something !! 

I now don’t know what to do , while I was on doctori pct my eyes were messed up @100mg a day x7 . Should I do another round of his pct ? I’m scared of my eyes ! I can Get my hands on some enclomiphene? Should I try that ?! 

I am 4 months off of gear ?? 

please don’t tell me how stupid I am for being on for so long . I know , if I could go back obviously I would change Shit. 

Yeah, one pct was never going to save you so what you are experiencing is not unexpected at all.

How old are you?

31.

I’m just worried about the eyes with the clomid at 100mg x 7 days ?

You think I’ll be fine to run another doctori PCT again ?

No, don't run clomid again if you experience side-effects... at least not at 100mg per day. That is a very aggressive clomid dose though, but that is what Doctari's protocol is.

You've been on AAS since ±17, so pretty much chemically castrated by now. A PCT designed for short-term bodybuilding cycles will not be enough, you will most likely need long term HCG cycles. Maybe one of the other members with more experience dealing with cases like this can give you more specific advice.

Remember something, its not the amount of gear being used that is the issue when it comes to recovery, its the length of time you have been shut down for in order for things to recover.

Remember its like a factory, if your doors have been shut for 14 years, to get the machines working, to find new employees, to regain customers, and make a profit can take years. Not 4 months.

Also depends on the ester you have been using usually takes 4-5x the length of the half life for it to clear..so if you were using cyp 48-60 days for it to be fully out the system for you to start your pct.

So you need to consider that.

Next thing to consider is there enough calories for your system to start functioning normally? Enough saturated fat to produce hormones?

Is your sleeping perfect? Is your life less stressful?

I would consider zma before bed aswell as ashwagandha to try and drive those things better..

You can use hcg or ovitrelle to get all those processes started again that with the use of tamoxifen will assist things drastically.

You need to have some estrogen in the system to also drive sex drive etc but all of the above needs to be taken care of to start the process! Give it time and I would say another 2-3months before more bloods following the above and hope you are going to recover.

Thank you sooo much for all the help ! All of you as nice and supportive as you were 14 years ago !

Ok so no clomid ,

My life is stressful , probably the most stressful it’s ever been.

I’ll just do some HCG, and tamoxifen for the next 30 days

What are you coming off for? You started at a age where it may just be impossible to recover, for your leydig cells to have no pulses since mid teenage years its very possible that they will never turn back on, its far easier to recover when your body has some 'soft wiring' to 'return' back to, hence thats all PCT does. That doesn't mean you can't achieve what it is you looking for. Are you wanting to have kids now?

The same situation happens with women starting the pill at a very young age, when they stop they wonder why they are not able to fall pregnant.

Also you need to be doing allot of blood work.

What is your LH / FSH and e2 levels now? You need to ensure your e2 levels stay very low during this time, just above the low normal.

I would not bother with tamoxifen or clomid as they very difficult to get accurate blood results from, it's far easier just using an AI and HCG.

I tried for a couple years, everything under the sun from spinning 5 times on my head to doing cartwheels. I am never recovering, however I was able to have a child, so if that is your goal I can help advise what worked for me, however testosterone levels where never able to return anywhere near acceptable.

Also when it comes to clinical recovery that can take a year to two, if you wanting to try wait that long, but you going to need to constantly send signals to help "try" help achieve that, again don't use the SERMS if you trying to do this via blood results.

Let me know what that levels are on now. Even the FSH is of very little importance at this stage but it's worth just throwing it in, e2, lh, fsh, testosterone.

Based on your previous bloodwork you're going to get confused doing bloodwork again after another month on HCG and taxmoxifen.

In order to have a normal testosterone production you need to 1. produce enough LH from your pituitary gland, and 2. your balls must be able to produce testosterone after receiving the signal from the LH.

HCG is an analog of LH so it will stimulate your balls to make testosterone without your brain needing to produce any LH. This is almost certainly why you managed to get a Total T count of 256... So at least you know your balls can respond to a signal to produce T.

This is secondary hypogonadism, and points to a problem in the hypothalamus or pituitary.

Taking HCG will increase your T but will do nothing for secondary hypogonadism. It's actually counterproductive if your balls are functioning normally.

The most promising new treatment to wake up the dysfunctional cells in the hypothalamus and pituitary is a peptide called Kisspeptin. It is available in SA and can be used along with a SERM. It's produced naturally in the brain but there's not enough of it if you've been shut down for 14 years. 

Hi all,
Sorry for high jacking this thread, although it’s been a while since someone posted on it.
Long story short… 

I am 41 years old and have been on TRT for about 2 years now.
Doctor who specializes in hormones prescribed me Test Cypionate at 200mg per week. 

Bloods that were done prior to TRT:
E2: < 70 pmol/l
LH: < 0.2 IU/l
FSH: 2.5 IU/l
TT: 3.2 nmol/l
FT: 60.9 pmol/l
SHBG: 30.9 nmol/l 

2 months on 200mg Test Cypionate:
E2: 142 pmol/l
LH: < 0.2IU/l
TT: 47.4 nmol/l
FT: 1803.4 pmol/l
SHBG: 8.0 nmol/l 

Current blood results on 200mg Test Cypionate:
E2 <70 pmol/l
FT: 749 pmol/l
Progesterone: 0
DHEA: 1
LH: < 0.2 IU/l
FSH: < 0.2 IU/l 

Went to see the doctor again, which advised me to stay on 200mg Test, along with DHEA at 10mg per day and Progesterone at 12.5mg per day as these levels were almost non-existent.
I was told that my LH and FSH were going to be non-existent due to the exogenous Test I am using, which makes sense. 

Got married last year and me and the wife are trying to have a child.
Doctor advised to use the DHEA and Progesterone to get all hormones in order and take it from there.
I have done a Fertility test (home test), which showed negative, probably due to my LH and FSH which are non-existent. 
Do you agree with this and wait for my DHEA and Progesterone levels to get to a normal level (not 100% sure if this is the best approach) OR should I rather start taking some HCG and or an AI or SERM? 

I know Pump also had an issue with his fertility and that he tried everything to get it sorted until he received help from and Endo.
I would really appreciate it if you could give me your input on this as having a child is important for us.

Thanks in advance.

Option number 1 and probably the best 1 is listen to your doctor prescribing your stuff to you.

Option number 2 is coming off everything and doing an extended pct 3.

Sorry bud, this is quite a complex task and i don't believe there is a single right way to skin a cat here.

Have you gone and done a proper sperm test? That's probably the best way to verify your side and then branch out from there. Each angle you go takes its time to rule out effectiveness.

How long have you stopped the TRT? As it's going to take some serious time off before LH and FSH increase , however it doesn't look like thru are if they are not existent prior to testosterone unless those first bloods where done sometime after a cycle when your body was at it lowest but had not started recovering yet, to much missing info, and loads of speculation happening from my side.

Quite interesting your E2 was that low before starting your replacement, did you take anything that might have dropped it prior to those bloods.

It looks to me like you where or had been blocking it here by some AI?

Hi 00pump, have not done a sperm test at any labs yet. The doctor told me to stay on TRT at 200mgs for now, so currently still on TRT, which does not make sense to me?
I had done a cycle a few months prior to taking those first blood test. But did do a PCT3 aftewards.

Hi 00pump, did not take any AI prior to doing the blood test, so also not sure why my E2 was that low. I will see if I have blood results after my last PCT and post it.

Where you not slamming dostinex to lower prolactin?

Hi Empire, no I only used dostinex while on TRT cause of high prolactin levels.

@00Pump, So the first doctor referred me to a Urologist after I mentioned Fertility.

So I made an appointment with a Urologist.

So basically, he wants me to use Clomid at 25mg per day for 25 days, stop for 5 days and then do this for another 6 months.
Then to draw bloods after 3 months - FT, TT and semen analysis and see him again.

The Urologist did examine my testicles yesterday and he confirmed that they are heavily atrophied. This is basically the reason why I asked him if I cannot use HCG to get them to start producing sperm again.
I did ask the Urologist regarding the use of HCG, but he was totally against it.

I did an OTC fertility test and it came back negative, but I am not too convinced about trusting those tests.

My heart says to trust the Urologist, because he specializes in this type of work, but my brain says this is too little and if one takes my bloods, the size of my testicles and I have been on 200mg TRT per week for 2 years now.

So yes, this is my second opinion and I understand it is going to take some time to get my fertility back, if possible. I just don't want to waste time if it is not perhaps the "best" option.

@00Pump, not sure if it would be possible if you could share the protocol you used to get your wife pregnant or advise please?

Thanks.

 

I wouldn't suggest doing what I did as I was at a dead end. You need to try something and stick to it.. The urologists suggestion may work, so trust the process for now and do the blood work and see where it goes.

Or find someone else like an endo and see if they handle this differently but you may also not like the direction and want to "tweak" it.

End of the day you need to start something and expect that this could take awhile.

Thanks Pump, appreciate your honest opinion.

I will stick with the Urologists recommendation using Clomid at 25mg E/D and do bloods after 3 months.

I would like to know is there any other Natural Supplement which I could use together with the Clomid to assist with increasing my natural testosterone levels as well as fertility?

I know that it would not come close to what Clomid is doing, but just to assist with the process.

For example Ashwagandha, DAA, Longjack, ZMA, etc.
If so, what product\s would you recommend as a lot of them consists of a combination of all the products?

Would appreciate your opinions once again.

Thanks.

pocketmuscle wrote:

Thanks Pump, appreciate your honest opinion.

I will stick with the Urologists recommendation using Clomid at 25mg E/D and do bloods after 3 months.

I would like to know is there any other Natural Supplement which I could use together with the Clomid to assist with increasing my natural testosterone levels as well as fertility?

I know that it would not come close to what Clomid is doing, but just to assist with the process.

For example Ashwagandha, DAA, Longjack, ZMA, etc.
If so, what product\s would you recommend as a lot of them consists of a combination of all the products?

Would appreciate your opinions once again.

Thanks.

I like the Doc's recommendation of 25mg/day Clomid. I did a lot of research when I was still concerned about fertility and I saw that many people had success with long term low dose clomid therapy. I would take the ashwaganda and longjack. It does seem that our bodies build up tolerance to longjackl so it'a best to cycle it to get the best out of it. Both are proven to improve sperm count. I wouldn't bother with DAA.