HCG - During or Post Cycle?

Hi

I am getting very confused about the use of HCG in a cycle.

Some people say it must only ever be used during the cycle, keeping the balls active throughout the cycle.

Others, and I see that here on this site, say it should be used for PTC.

Now my understanding is that HCG increases Test production, but that the Test still AROMATIZES, leading of course to even further suppression of natural Test.

Also, it suppresses the Legdig cells, so that after your cycle you will produce less LH than you did before you started. Clearly a bad thing.

Why then is it recommended as part of PCT?

Is there something I don't understand here?

something i got off the net...
HCG - Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Use After Anabolic Steroid Cycles for Bodybuilding

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone. (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.

When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during PCT. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given LH or hCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production.

so this means use hcg during the cycle or in the pct?

well the article head line is HCG - Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Use After Anabolic Steroid Cycles for Bodybuilding so i am taking it they say afer

It says:
1. Use 250-500 each week to maintain sensitivity.
2. Use high doses when sensitivity had been greatly reduced with a steroid cycle of 10-12 weeks.

HCG seems to have application in both PCT and during the cycle.

During cycle to keep the boys from shrinking which helps with the PCT later, and in PCT to assist in getting sensitivity back.

This is a long read, but is very, very interesting.By: William Llewellyn



O.K. You have been on an awesome 4-month cycle of Sustanon and Dianabol. You?ve gained a massive 20 lbs, and are extremely pleased with your results. You can?t stop looking in the mirror. But there is a problem now starting to eat away at you. You are going to run out of steroids very soon (you know you need a break anyway), and your testicles are the size of raisins.
Your body is producing less testosterone than a 9-year-old girl, and you are scrambling to figure out what to do to avoid a nasty post-cycle crash that could potentially strip away some of your hard-earned muscle. The opinions on how to restore endogenous testosterone production post-cycle seem to be different everywhere you look.
What option is best? Without an understanding of exactly what is going on in your body, and why certain compounds help to correct the situation, choosing the right post-cycle program can be quite confusing. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the role of anti-estrogens and HCG during this delicate window of time, while detailing an effective strategy for their use.

The Axis

The Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis, or HPTA for short, is the thermostat for your body?s natural production of testosterone. Too much testosterone and the furnace will shut off. Not enough, and the heat is turned up, to put it very simply. For the purposes of our discussion here we can look at this regulating process as having three levels. At the top is the hypothalamic region of the brain, which releases the hormone GnRH (Gonadotropin-Releasing Hormone) when it senses a need for more testosterone. GnRH sends a signal to the second level of the axis, the pituitary, which releases Luteinizing Hormone in response.
LH for short, this hormone stimulates the testes (level three) to secrete testosterone. The same sex steroids (testosterone, estrogen) that are produced serve to counter-balance things, by providing negative feedback signals (primarily to the hypothalamus and pituitary) to lower the secretion of testosterone when too much of this hormone is sensed.
Synthetic steroids, of course, suppress testosterone the same way. This quick background of the testosterone-regulating axis is necessary to furthering our discussion, as we need to first look at the underlying mechanisms involved before we can understand why natural recovery of the HPTA post-cycle is a slow process. Only then can we implement an ancillary drug program to effectively deal with it.

Testicular Desensitization

Although steroids suppress testosterone production primarily by lowering the level of gonadotropic hormones discussed above, the big roadblock to a restored HPTA after we come off the drugs is surprisingly not the level of LH itself. This problem is made clearly evident in a study published in Acta Endocrinologica back in 1975(1). Here blood parameters, including testosterone and LH levels, were monitored in male subjects whom were given testosterone enanthate injections of 250mg weekly for 21 weeks.
Subjects remained under investigation for an additional 18 weeks after the drug was discontinued. At the start of the study, LH levels became suppressed in direct relation to the rise in testosterone, which is to be expected. Things looked very different, however, once the steroids had been withdrawn (see Figure I). LH levels went on the rise quickly (by the 3rd week), while testosterone barely budged for quite some time. In fact, on average it was more than 10 weeks before any noticeable movement started.
This lack of correlation makes clear that the problem in getting androgen levels restored is not the level of LH, but in fact testicular atrophy and desensitization to this hormone. After a period of inactivation the testes have apparently lost mass (atrophied), making them unable to perform the workload required by heightened levels of LH.
Post-Cycle LH Levels

Post Cycle Testosterone Levels

Figure I. LH and Testosterone measurements starting 1 week after the last injection of 250mg of testosterone enanthate (pretreated measures were 5 mU/ml and 4.5 ng/ml respectively). Note that between weeks 1 and 5, as testosterone levels are declining due to the cessation of exogenous androgen administration, LH levels are already rebounding. From weeks 5 to 10 testosterone levels are at or very near baseline, to spite the substantial LH levels by this point. No significant increase in testosterone is noted until after the 10-week mark.

The Role Of Anti-Estrogens

It is important to understand that anti-estrogens alone do not do much to restore endogenous testosterone release after a cycle. Normally they only foster LH by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens, and we now see that LH rebounds quickly without help anyway. Plus, post cycle there is not an elevated level of estrogen for anti-estrogens to block, as testosterone (now suppressed) is a major substrate used for the synthesis of estrogens in men. Serum estrogen levels will actually be lower here as a result, not higher.
Any estrogen rebound that occurs post-cycle likewise happens concurrently with a rebound in testosterone levels, not prior to it (note there is an imbalance in the ratio post cycle, but this is another topic altogether). We are seeing no mechanism in which anti-estrogenic drugs can really help here. We can see why this fact would not be difficult to overlook, however. The medical literature is filled with references showing anti-estrogenic drugs like Clomid and Nolvadex to increase LH and testosterone levels, and in normal situations these drugs do indeed increase endogenous androgen production by blocking the negative feedback of estrogens.
Combine this with the fact that just as many studies can be found to show that steroid use lowers LH levels when suppressing testosterone, and we can see how easy it would be to jump to the conclusion that post-cycle we need to focus on restoring LH. We would miss the true problem of testicular desensitization unless we were really looking into the actual recovery rates of the hormones involved. When we do, we immediately see little value in using anti-estrogenic drugs.

HCG

So we now see, contrary to the dominating opinion of the times, that anti-estrogens alone will do little to raise testosterone levels in the early weeks of the post-cycle window. This leaves us to focus on a very different level of the HPTA in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this we will need the injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar with it, HCG, or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin, is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the bodies own natural LH.
Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as LH (they both work through the same mechanism), we are administering it as a measured drug and are therefore not constrained by the limits of our own LH production. We similarly can use HCG to provide a bolus dose of LH (of our choosing), which works only to augment the recovering LH levels we already have in the body. In essence we are looking to shock them with an overwhelmingly high level of LH activity, coming from both endogenous and exogenous sources.
We want it to reach a level far above what our body, even when supported by anti-estrogens, could possibly do on its own. The result can be a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program. What we are looking at now is HCG actually being the pivotal post-cycle drug, while anti-estrogens are relegated to a supportive role at best.

Finalizing The Program

An ideal post-cycle recovery program will focus on two things really. The first is hitting the testes hard with HCG. It is important, however, not to overuse this drug. Taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, the LH receptor will actually become desensitized to LH(2), which may further exacerbate our post-cycle problem instead of helping it (this is why I am not in favor of regular HCG use on-cycle). My experience with HCG has led me to feel comfortable using it for a course of three weeks, at a dosage of maybe 5000-7500IU weekly.
Often the last week I limit the dose to 2,500IU, unless the cycle has been particularly long or potent. This is timed so at least half of the total administered drug dosage will be given when there is still exogenous steroid in the body. On our graph above this would be at about the 3-week mark after the last injection of testosterone.
This will give the testes some time to get back into shape before the baseline is actually hit with T levels. Secondly, Anti-estrogens are used to play a supportive role at the same time, so 20mg of Nolvadex or 50-100mg of Clomid would typically be added (my last article for Mind and Muscle discusses the comparative differences with these two agents). This is to combat the suppressive effects of estrogen as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as potential side effects (HCG has been shown to increase testicular aromatase activity as well (3)).
Although in the first couple of weeks the anti-estrogen does little, it may indeed be helpful when testosterone levels actually start to get back up near normal. To further stimulate the HPTA, and support continuingly high LH levels, the anti-estrogen remains to be used for 2 to 3 weeks after the HCG therapy has been stopped. A sample program, as it would be instituted in our sample post-cycle window, is provided below.
Sample Post-cycle Plan:
Week Amount
Week 3: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 4: 5000IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 5: 2500IU HCG total + 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 6: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 7: 20mg Nolvadex daily
Week 8: 20mg Nolvadex daily

In Closing

I hope this article provided a well-needed new look at the mechanisms involved in post-cycle testosterone recovery. Indeed I believe it should debunk a commonly held belief these days, as we seen now that those advocating the sole use of Clomid post cycle are sorely missing the mark. The problem goes much deeper than just getting LH levels back.
In fact, we see that LH doesn?t even need much help kicking back into gear, and a drug like Clomid will do very little to help this anyway in the absence of significant estrogen levels anyway. HCG is a drug with undeniable usefulness during the post-cycle window, and many bodybuilders have been much too quick to abandon it. It is truly fundamental to an effective recovery program, and would not consider any dose or combination of anti-estrogens or aromatase inhibitors capable of doing the job without it.

Those are old school numbers bro i dont think than anyone hits 5000 IUS of hcg anymore in a shot. Especially now that most now that improper use of hcg can lead to permanent problems...

Lesa wrote:

Those are old school numbers bro i dont think than anyone hits 5000 IUS of hcg anymore in a shot. Especially now that most now that improper use of hcg can lead to permanent problems...

Ja, it is the old fashioned PCT, and 5000 IU's will create further shut down IMO.

Some guys start taking the HCG in smaller doses in the last couple of weeks of the cycle to assist PCT later. Some guys take it throughout the cycle to keep the big boys functional throughout.

Some guys NEVER include it at all, either cycle or PCT.

The stasis/taper method has become popular too I see. Using just Test to come off. NOT the old pyramid method. This is very different.

I am basically confused as to the proper use of HCG. When do you take it and how much do you take?

Also, concerning AI's (Aromatase Inhibitors):

Do you keep an AI on hand during cycling? If so, what do you use, and how much do you take?

Do you wait for symptoms to occur then use an AI Or do you take them anyway, just in case?

Appreciate the help guys.

Lot's of questions.
1.) HCG - Check Doctari's thread and am sure you will find answers there
2.) AI's - Keep on hand and depending on your compound you use you take when needed, taking all the time will promote low estrogen levels and hamper growth. If you have a progesterone based gyno, Arimidex will not help, then you would use Letrozole. Test based gyno, Arimidex or Letrozole.

Netro - doc states 500iu/week on cycle. wouldn't it be better to split the dose?

IMO Yes, but I cannot argue the logic of a Doc. I would go 3 x 300 - 500iU p/week, but again, that's my opinion.

You can try both.
500iU 1 x p/week or 300iU 3 x p/week.
See what works best in your case, also dependent on compounds. Ones that shut you down hard you might need more frequent maintenance doses compared to a test only cycle or milder anabolics.

Netro wrote:

IMO Yes, but I cannot argue the logic of a Doc. I would go 3 x 300 - 500iU p/week, but again, that's my opinion.

You can try both.
500iU 1 x p/week or 300iU 3 x p/week.
See what works best in your case, also dependent on compounds. Ones that shut you down hard you might need more frequent maintenance doses compared to a test only cycle or milder anabolics.

Thanks again for the advice.

I am running dbol 30mg pd for 4 weeks

Deca 300 and Sust 250 500mg pw each for 10 weeks.

Got Nolva and HCG for PCT. Just confused as hell as to what dosages to take and when to start taking them. There seems to be so many different view points on this.

Netro wrote:

Lot's of questions.
1.) HCG - Check Doctari's thread and am sure you will find answers there
2.) AI's - Keep on hand and depending on your compound you use you take when needed, taking all the time will promote low estrogen levels and hamper growth. If you have a progesterone based gyno, Arimidex will not help, then you would use Letrozole. Test based gyno, Arimidex or Letrozole.

The guy who supplied me the gear said I wouldn't need to have AI's because I wouldn't be having any sides.

He is a guy who sells a lot of gear and works out cycles for lots of people, but I think he is talking shit. My 10 week cycle (see my post to you above)seems sure as hell capable of giving me sides.

Now I am very worried. I started 10 days ago and don't have any Adex or Letro.

How soon before I will need them?

From what I can gather, my natural test would have begun to shut down already.

When will I notice sides (if any) on this cycle? I know everyone is different, but is there a general consensus as to when sides usually kick in with these drugs?

Bud,
Deca and Nolvadex / Kessar is not a good idea. Would rather have suggested HCG and Clomid. You WILL get sides, even if it's just acne and an oily skin. Deca will shut you down after the first shot. It will become more prevalent after week 3 or so from a sides point of view. You have to learn what to look for and once you notice them what to treat them with and which doses. Your course is pretty low dosage wise, so I would not stress about the Arimidex cause that would not help if you have sides (progesterone) from the Deca. Rather get Letrozole and if you get test gyno or progesterone gyno it will help with both and is a hell of a lot cheaper than A-Dex now a days.

Hope this helps.

I cannot understand why would people use deca when we have equipose all over the show, except for its injury repair properties i dont see why would anyone use deca as more time goes by more and more negative feedback comes about deca. But a quick question I just injured my arm at the part connecting the bicep and the forearm. How much deca could you take not to get shut down but get the healing result?

Netro wrote:

Bud,
Deca and Nolvadex / Kessar is not a good idea. Would rather have suggested HCG and Clomid. You WILL get sides, even if it's just acne and an oily skin. Deca will shut you down after the first shot. It will become more prevalent after week 3 or so from a sides point of view. You have to learn what to look for and once you notice them what to treat them with and which doses. Your course is pretty low dosage wise, so I would not stress about the Arimidex cause that would not help if you have sides (progesterone) from the Deca. Rather get Letrozole and if you get test gyno or progesterone gyno it will help with both and is a hell of a lot cheaper than A-Dex now a days.

Hope this helps.

It does Netro. Thanks a lot. I do have HCG.

I need to get back to this guy and see if he can get me some Letro

Lesa wrote:

I cannot understand why would people use deca when we have equipose all over the show, except for its injury repair properties i dont see why would anyone use deca as more time goes by more and more negative feedback comes about deca. But a quick question I just injured my arm at the part connecting the bicep and the forearm. How much deca could you take not to get shut down but get the healing result?

Lesa, its because I don't know where to get EQ from.

The guy I bought the gear from designed my cycle, and that's what he offered.

In my case sadly, it a case of beggars can't be choosers.

I am also worried, because all the gear he supplied is Nomad stuff and I have read some pretty shitty reports about them on this site.

The guy I bought the gear from designed my cycle, and that's what he offered.

Why dont you mail admin/netro? - they can design great cycles for you.

jackrabbit1 wrote:

The guy I bought the gear from designed my cycle, and that's what he offered.

Why dont you mail admin/netro? - they can design great cycles for you.

Well I got the stuff now, and so I'm gonna use it. I don't think it's a bad cycle for a beginner.

I will definitely contact Netro before my next cycle , for sure.

He has been a great help to me already.

It's nice to know you can come to a site like this for help, and get it from so many knowledgeable people.

Netro wrote:

Bud,
Deca and Nolvadex / Kessar is not a good idea. Would rather have suggested HCG and Clomid. You WILL get sides, even if it's just acne and an oily skin. Deca will shut you down after the first shot. It will become more prevalent after week 3 or so from a sides point of view. You have to learn what to look for and once you notice them what to treat them with and which doses. Your course is pretty low dosage wise, so I would not stress about the Arimidex cause that would not help if you have sides (progesterone) from the Deca. Rather get Letrozole and if you get test gyno or progesterone gyno it will help with both and is a hell of a lot cheaper than A-Dex now a days.

Hope this helps.

Thanks again Netro.

You are spot on about the sides, after 3 weeks I am bloating like the friggin Michelin Man. Got sore and puffy nipples as well, and kind of waddle from one place to the next.
I am going to place my order for Letro right now.

I heard it's critical to take only as much as is absolutely necessary, because you can end up negating the gains from the gear? Not sure about that though.

EDITI have just seen on another post that someone recommended Letro from Liquid Products at 2.5 mg a day. Do I just keep taking it at this dosage until the symptoms disappear (hopefully); or is there a prescribed time period?

I have also started taking Nolva @ 20mg per day, do I continue taking them with the Letro?

I know there is a thread on Letro here somewhere, but can't seem to find it.

Your help, will as always, be greatly appreciated.