Ancillaries

Want to see what the Board's thoughts are on the use of Arimidex and Aromasin.

Very, very expensive and since I am not that sensitive to gyno I just use the neccesssary, clomid, kessar. I think more would use this, but price is a big deterrent. Also not many guys carry stock and it's mostly available on order only, so this is also a negative, but a great drug and definately has it's place.

If it weren't for the high price, I would definitely use it in all my cycles. I'm VERY sensitive to estrogenic side-effects and have to use 40mg - 60mg Kessar / day just to slow down the gyno, but even then it still becomes a problem on long cycles at medium to high dosages.

PGW is planning to stock Arimidex at very reasonable prices soon.

thats great news arimidex is very good, doesn't nolvadex blocks igf1 in the body? dave palumbo said that.
from now i will only use adex,kessar only blocks the estrogen,adex stops it from converting. so you dont even have estrogen floting around in your body. price was a factor but pgw has it at a VERY good price.
thankx pgw!

OK, I have decided that the PCT subject with all the Ancillaries, is just too big a subject to discuss in one article. I spoke to Mark Stent this morning and suggested the two of us put together articles on different components of PCT, but have them published in ME for all to see. I will be drafting a framework of what components should be discussed how and when - this we will forward to Andrew and see if he will run this as a serious for us.

Why am I doing this?
Firstly, I think information should be available to those who do not have internet.
Secondly, it will be good for our Board - might lead to more members..
Thirdly, for those wanting to catch on to a very rapid growing market of ancillaries, they will atleast have an indication what is the need of the b/building fraternity. Those who want to fill that niche - well, obviously they are wellcome to do so.

The first article will be on these two drugs, as someone out there has already taken note for the need of these two compounds at better prices.

Thus, for the time being, I will not discuss these...(for obvious reasons).

So, I will from time to time ask your opinions on certain drugs, but then not discuss them indepth further. Just bare with me then...

Hi guys, well I used some a-dex on my last cycle; 0.5mg EOD, it was great cause had no bloat at all, I will not run it next time though. Oestrogen is also very important for muscle growth and I feel my gains were much slower while using A-dex. for those interested A-dex isnt all that expensive, i got GA's adex and it is very reasonable when using 1/2 a tab EOD. If you bloat badly or have gyno options its not a bad idea to add.

When it comes to PCT, there are some issues with adex. Anthony Roberts, who is a fake in my eyes, claims that nolvadex when used with a-dex is pointless as tamoxifeen inhibits the activity of a-dex. I did my own literature search on this topic and found the paper which Roberts must have derived this informayion from. The paper showed that tamoxifeen only decreases the effectiveness of anastrole (a-dex) by 27%. Beacause of this claimed interaction Roberts has started the "craze" of using Aromasin with Nolva for PCT, but as far as im concerned there is no real evedence to use aromasin over A-dex. A-dex is more than 20 times as potent as Aromasin and in my opinion the better drug.

I have my own opinion WRT PCT. HCG in my opinion should only be used during a cycle and during the week or two (depending on ester length) after the last injection. Thereafter I believe it is most beneficial to use SERMs, and once again I believe the more potent SERM (Nolva) is the better choice. I would run Nolva for 2-3 weeks continued (with a 1 week overlap) of 2-3 weeks of A-dex. My personal reasons for doing so is to force recovery. I believe that if Adex is used in immediately post cycle test would stay elevated for longer and therefore there is less of a stimulus to the anterior pituatary as the test which is not being aromatised is still causing inhibition. For this reason i would use Nolva immediately after for 2-3 weeks as test will aromatise and nolva will inhibit oestogen, the product of the aromatisation to inhibit. Therefore there will be no negative inhibition at the level of the anterior pituatary and therefore a stronger GnRH release leading to a stronger LH release and faster recovery. Once this recovery has started up nicely I will start 2-3 weeks of A-dex just to stop the endogenouse test from aromatising and therefore keeping it elevated to avoid PCT muscle loss and blues.

In my opinion the HCG should be used during the cycle at 250IU 2x per week and if need be the week after your last shot, you dont want to use HCg in PCT because 1) The elevated test from the HCg will inhibit recovery and 2) There will be no LH recovery when HCG (an LH minicer) is used

Just my thought, take it or leave it.

Docatari i have a couple of paper form the research Ive done i'll pass onto you if you want them.

Cheers

I have used BD adex,, and it works great,, and is not that expensive..

Nice article mike007 .. Theory is Solid.

Mike, my papers I read on Aromasin shows that it inhibits all three forms of estrogen by 92-97%, leaving circulating estrogen levels well below 15%. Its method of working is totally different from that of Arimidex and that's why the Nolva has an effect on the Arimidex, but not on the Aromasin. Arimidex lowers your estrogen levels by about 50% - that's why it, to me, is the better choice on cycle. When you're on cycle(except in the case of 6 weeks pre-contest) you do not want to suppress your estrogen in total. The main reason for this, is that you still need some estrogen to stimulate the liver to produce IGF-1.

The problem is, that when you go off your test cycle and you do not have any androgenic support(waiting period for test to start producing naturally), the last thing you want to hang around, is ANY estrogen. That's why Aromasin is the better choice in PCT - and not for the reason of Nolva not having an effect on it when used simultaneously. Femara is the one that blocks ALL estrogen production, but does also suppress the LH level more, where as Aromasin does not.

You're right about the HCG use. You do not have to use it as long in your PCT, as long as you have used it while on cycle. I still think that it should be used at higher doses for longer (3 weeks) IF you have not used it at all while on cycle.

If it were me, I would:
- use Arimidex on cycle
- Aromasin afterwards as part of PCT(as it blocks more estrogen)
- use Femara only last 6-8 weeks pre-contest.

Please contact Admin for my e-mail address. I shoulds have many studies sent to me in the next week from the above Companies. I specifically asked for biochemistry, pharmacodynamics of these three products, as well as studies where it was used in men for gynaecomastia.

I disagree with you about A-dex only decreasing oestrogen by 50%; as soon as I have time spare today I will do my search and reference my statements. OR I will say sorry:)

Don't search too wide - here it is:
Journal Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism of July 2000, volume 85(7), page 2370-7. Article was on ESTROGEN SUPPRESSION IN MALES.
Let me explain one concept:
If it inhibits the aromatization process by 80%, that does not mean your blood levels of estrogen decrease by 80% too. It only means that the aromatase reaction is blocked by 80%. Blood levels still need to be measured - and that shows effective circulating estrogen level decrease by 50%.

But, let me get all the studies from the company. I asked for all their official studies on the use of Arimidex in men for gynaemastia. Let me receive and study them for us - I promise to give an un-biased opinion then.

Mike, another thing I just thought of. Most of these studies are done in women. The next thing also to keep in mind, is that most of the studies state the % aromatases inhibiting, as well as the % decrease in the circulating estrogen levels WHEN STEADY STATE bloodlevels are reached. In Arimidex, this is after one week of full 1mg dosage per day, in Femara's instance, after2,5mg per day that is only reached after 60 days. The point here is that , if 80% aromatases action is inhibited, 20% is still active, meaning conversion from testosterone to estrogen is still going on. The more testosterone is available, the higher estrogen CIRCULATING values will be in the blood. I think what these studies don't take in consideration, is how long you need to use your dosage until there is no or very little ciculating estrogen left.
Also keep in mind, that you do inhibit the conversion by 80% and the circulating estrogen left over, you continue to metabolize that estrogen, the longer you metabolize it at higher level whilst still on the SRM, the less there will be circulating. I will have to check what Arimidex's half life is, but it is short enough to warrant daily dosing. Your cycle might provide little estrogen production, and/or you may genetically not convert that easy, that you may get away with 0.5 mg per every second day. Others may not.

I think the more we can analize the information, the more we will start understanding these drugs. So, let's share info !