Is it possible to get natural test levels back?

Hi Guys. This question developed in my mind after a recent visit to the doctor for an unrelated matter.

While sitting at the doctor she was called out to give a guy his Nubido HRT shot and after she came back we discussed the use of steroids and the impact on your natural test levels later in life.

Well my question is simple: Will it be possible to put a guy that has low test levels and is on HRT on a test only cycle and then afterwards do a comprehensive PCT and after this for him to maintain good numbers in terms of natural test?

Or is a question of if your screwed your screwed?

Vega:

Food for thought hey, but i highly doubt it, if he was a candidate for HRT then his nat test was rather low below average cant remember the exact score will look on my bloodtest sheets later. So then a test cycle would bump his test- lets say to normal or slightly above and a solid pct> even a fully personalized one targeting high ending levels will only get him back to what he was or slightly above.

IMO: its like filling a bucket that has a hole in it at a certain level, you can fill it up and take care that it gets its water in etc but at the end of the day if no water is added it will return to its previous level. Thats why HRT is the only successful method at restoring and maintaining normal levels and unfortunately its not natural.

Peace

Was just something that I was wondering about. Nice analogy btw.

Would also like a more definitive answer??

Hmmm but dont think its possible without constant supplementation of some sort>> maybe the internet tribulus fan-base has a few answers??

Mr Moose wrote:

Would also like a more definitive answer??

Hmmm but dont think its possible without constant supplementation of some sort>> maybe the internet tribulus fan-base has a few answers??

I've put in a request for Doctari so maybe we're lucky.

Hmm, well one thing we can say, has the person run a power PCT like we use on a steroid cycle. Speak to one doctor about PCT and what compounds are going to be used. When I speak of Tamoxifen, surgeons and doctors are like, that stuff is used to treat breast cancer. And Adex, etc the same is true about suppressing estrogen. Not 1 medical doctor, I have spoken too knows about using HCG (in men) / Nolva / Clomid / Aromasin.

How many times people take prolactin lowering drugs, does this mean they on them for life? Some yes some no, now what they doing is reaching a baseline, a level that is not through the roof, then when discontinue of the drug the levels stay the same. Now why is this or shouldn't this be the case with people with low test levels? Let’s not even talk about Libido as this could be a complete psychological reason.

The only way to know this for certain is to do a power test enhancer. What we would call a power PCT. I take pretty much everything a doctor tells me with a pinch of salt, especially when it comes to the sport I love and do. Until there are clinical trials to prove otherwise I won’t take that as fact that everyone with low test levels can go on HRT.

Tell me once you walk into a doctor’s office you leave without a script? Tell me how many times when you a kid, you tell a doctor you have XYZ and you leave with antibiotics and you think to yourself, hmm, were I really sick or did I just want to be off school? Allot of doctors are script junkies and truly don’t care much about your health, even if they pretend they are for the 10 minutes you sit in their chair. Once you out the door you out their mind too. I would do anything in my power not to go on HRT, we all know the dangers of anabolic steroids and these dangers DO NOT GO AWAY just because you calling it HRT. And please don't tell me the sides go away because they running low doses.

@00pump - Hear! Hear!

Been trying to get my father on TRT because his test levels were at the lower levels for a long time explaining HCG and test levels etc. They should be in the ghigher half to upper quarter. His Dr wanted to know NOTHING about this.
Until some seminar in the USA recently. All of a sudden he is on TRT!
I told him to give the Dr the link to allthingsmale.com to get clued up.

PS. The HCG explanation came when he saw me inject the stuff doing my PCT last Dec!

jackrabbit1 wrote:

@00pump - Hear! Hear!

Been trying to get my father on TRT because his test levels were at the lower levels for a long time explaining HCG and test levels etc. They should be in the ghigher half to upper quarter. His Dr wanted to know NOTHING about this.
Until some seminar in the USA recently. All of a sudden he is on TRT!
I told him to give the Dr the link to allthingsmale.com to get clued up.

PS. The HCG explanation came when he saw me inject the stuff doing my PCT last Dec!

WOA ! Pinning in front of your toppie. Sounds like you gotta house full of junkies there..... :haha

bwhaha... nice

When I was a lightie, my mother used to pin me as I was too scared of needles to do it myself I was quite a mess on other things, so I told her would you prefer me using steroids and living a healthy life or carry on doing drugs...

she was like enjoy the gear...

00pump wrote:

bwhaha... nice

When I was a lightie, my mother used to pin me as I was too scared of needles to do it myself I was quite a mess on other things, so I told her would you prefer me using steroids and living a healthy life or carry on doing drugs...

she was like enjoy the gear...

My wife injects me and I return the favour......

vega5 wrote:

Mr Moose wrote:

Would also like a more definitive answer??

Hmmm but dont think its possible without constant supplementation of some sort>> maybe the internet tribulus fan-base has a few answers??

I've put in a request for Doctari so maybe we're lucky.

Here you go:

Doctari wrote:

Dear Sirs,

It seems that you guys are in the mood for "bashing" doctors and calling
them names! Just unfortuanete that you have never had the privelege to meet
me in person, because at 130kgs @12% fat I'm not the type of Doc you will
easily try bashing with such mean comments. It seems that I have been away
from this board for way too long - rather good so, as I would probably bump
heads with guys like you most of the time. Pricesely the same reason why I
left a few years ago, because of guys like you. Absolutely shameless of you.
Do you have any, even the faintest idea, what it takes to become a
professional person like a medical doctor ?? When I was still posting on
this board, I definitely would have gone out of my way to - in a fatherly
manner- teach you gentleman some manners and respect towards professional
people...

Maybe you should come and meet me at IFFB Nationals this year - you might
learn something..

That said, the question at hand is HRT in men. It has not been more than the
last decade that medical docs have actually started quantifying "male
menopause". Nomenclature-wise, it is actually wrong to call it this, as
"meno" means women. Currently there is not 100% consensus yet to what it
should be called, and for the interim we are calling it "andro-pause". Men
go through the same hormonal fluctuations than what women go through at the
average age of 51,7 years for the South African population - men actually
can go through this in their early forties already. Men do not go through
the same bad mood cycle changes women do, or have the same vasomotor
symptoms like women, but men also can get osteoporoses like women, though to
a lesser extent, as they maintain higher levels of activity compared to
women. Women will gain brown adipose tissue during 50-60 yr age - actually
average of 10kgs - but men gain visceral fat (read boep-pens or pot belly)
and loose lean body mass when testosterone levels start declining.

Natural occuring testosterone levels decline also because of high alcohol
use, smoking and inactivity in men - the latter being a big culprit of low
testosterone levels in men. The dictum of "use it, or loose it".. But, you
would obviously at this stage ask - why comment on the normal dudes out
there? Quite right, because THEY actually have a lower risk of reaching
andro-pause, compared to the body builder community ! Why? Because all body
builders will eventually after so many cycles without adequate PCT, end up
with "iatrogenic andro-pause". For the three gentleman bashing the docs all
the ttime, please go and search what "iatrogenic andro-pause" means and come
and enlighten your friends on the board..

Under normal conditions, your HPT-axis will rebound within 6 weeks after a
short (maybe first?) anabolic cycle, that only if your have not included any
19-nor-derivatives. But, we body builders never stop - do we? We hit the
next and the next and the next cycle - ad infinitum... So, our poor HPT-axis
actually never gets the chance to rebound properly. When we get to our mid-
to late thirties (and I actually have had a couple of athletes I worked with
a few years back, that were in their late twenties) we end up with
unresponsive HPT-axii and andro-pause follows. Now we need to start with
HRT.. Another problem is the inappropriately high dosages of Pregnyl used in
the body building community. I have athletes consulting me who have used 10
000 IU's on their PCT cycles as starting dosages to their PCT cycles - what
absolute madness! Guys, those dosages were designed for women with
infertility - NOT for men !! Dosages higher than 1500IU's (at the most) will
blunt the Leydig cell response, actually leading to testicular shut down.
Using continuous-intermittend high dosages of Pregnyl WILL damage the testii
permanently. That is why I said two years back on this board don't use such
high dosages. Limit your Ovidrel / Pregnyl doses to small (max 250IU) doses
multiple times per day to total of no more than 1000IU's per 48h. These
drugs are LH analogues and LH is secreted in our bodies in a pulsatile
manner, between 4 -6 times per day. So, why bash the system with mega high
dosages of LH analogues once per day? Continue to do this, and you WILL have
premature andro-pause..
I have written about this before - please refer back to the blah-blah-blah I
wrote about PCT, clomiphene priming of the testii before commencing LH
analogues, blah-blah-blah..

What can we then use for HRT? Nebido is the compound of choice for the
older, non-body builder patient. It is injected every three months depending
on the severity of the andro-pause. I have given it to some patients at
shorter intervals, even if it is not indicated for shorter intervals useage
by the manufacturer. It is bloody expensive, but works well for the
needle-shy individual. It renders testosterone activity very close to about
normal physiological levels of 56mg per week. For the not-so-needle-shy
ex-body builder, plain old test-enanthate at 150mg every two weeks are more
than adequate (T1/2 of 8-10 days). Most brands out there carry a 300mg/ml
formulation - that's 0,5cc every fortnight. Damn, now that is cost
effectice..

When do I start considering HRT in my clinical setting? Well, I personally
don't wait until the blood testosterone levels hit the lower level of the
normal values. Loss of libido, decrease in lean body mass, lethargy, ect
start becoming clinically noticeable at levels of about 250 (depending on
the parameters of the lab used). I will consider a trial of HRT round about
these levels, but hypothyroidism, diabetes, high cholesterol should first be
excluded; smoking, alcohol and recreational drug use (read good old
cannabis) should be stopped; and certain medicines should first be excluded
as causitive factors. Then the prostate should be screened every 6 months...

HRT until when? Usually for men until mid- to late sixties, but I have
patients currently above 75yrs still on treatment - but, they are physically
very active individuals...

For those of you wandering the youngest? I have had ex-body builders needing
to start HRT below 40yrs - they just permanently screwed up their
HPT-axii...(read: did not want to listen to Doctari - more is mos always
better, doc..)

For those of you (I might have misread or misunderstood it) that think
doctors aren't doing much for HRT in men. Please stop and think again - why
the hell do you think we doctors developed the class of SARM drugs ?? Or did
you think we only developed it for you dudes to use so that you don't test
positive on a drug test ??... Or when you want to view the world in yellow ?

For all those dear friends of mine still hanging around on this board
(Netro, Conan, Frikkie, DJEasy, ect). You might have wondered what has
happened to me. I'm currently busy with my Masters Degree in Sports
Medicine - yeah, actually my third degree and 14'th year at Varsity... I'm
busy with a very large research project (the first of its kind in the world)
on the elite level body builder and the use of AAS.... but I'm not allowed
to elaborate too much about it, as it has not been cleared by the ethical
committee for commenting on yet. This is the main reason why I'm not
commenting on the board anymore - only for the interim. So, as Arnie said
"I'll be back" - someday at least...

Frikkie, very nasty, nasty of you to try and lure me back old friend - you
nearly succeeded when I read about these "doctor-bashing" comments..

Cheers Dudes
Doctari

Very nice article...

However I would not take 1 word back about me bashing a doctor (those I have worked with)... I have had first insight into working with them from conditions of urticaria to kidney and heart condition right down to THEIR BELIEF of anabolic steroids is WARPED... Just to touch on urticaria, I suffered chronic urticaria and still get it every time I start a cycle and stop one, I would love for a doctor to explain why this happens to me. So I found a Durban professor that charges R 700 every 10 minutes and guess what she was the ONLY PERSON able to help me with my condition. I had consulted doctor after doctor and fell into their lies to treat it with cortisone, great this worked for 2 weeks, however the issue is I had to increase and increase and increase the dose until I felt like I was a pill popper, and the urticaria had never been that harsh like it was when created with cortisone. That professor told me the worst thing you could ever have done was to treat it with drugs like that, so she gave me a list of things not to eat, and told me she is sorry but I am going to feel extreme pain as she takes me off this stuff and put me onto 2 antihistamines, phenergan and kestine and after a good couple of weeks I finally started to feel relief and you will know firsthand how painful such a condition was, it took me 3 years of research and thousands of rands waisted with doctors. Now heart and kidneys I could speak for days on this.

I have never once bashed Doctari (Your name) however used some of your guidelines when speaking to other doctors and praised your work and knowledge to friends and fellow bodybuilders I know.

Doctari, I think you may be speaking on behalf of people in your circle of friends, but I can assure you not in the ring of doctors I have worked with. I have had doctors mixing up the difference between anabolic and corticosteroids. I can write an essay on what doctors have told me that has been the biggest load of crap I have heard on this planet. I truly do admire the length and effort that has gone into becoming a professional person but don't for 1 second think people on this board are not professional people because I am in my industry. My mother is a doctor so I know very well what went into achieving this, 2 jobs, holding a brick in her hand at night with a bucket under her so if she fell asleep it would drop in the bucket.

Here is another little example of why every doctor I have had a 'pleasure' of meeting is of more danger than good.

My fiancé heads off to the doctor yesterday with her mom who had flue and been feeling a bit down lately she speaks to the doctor about it, so the doctor gives her some form to fill out, oh guess what end of the form she is now a severe depressant? So my fiancé still shocked says hmm, listen I don't want to go on any hard drugs and can she please give me something natural so the doctor said sure, I have something for you. So what do you know she comes home with a drug and guess what it has the same compound in it to that of Prozac (This schedule 5 drug is now a natural medication like that of St. John Wort) Let me not even go into the amount of deaths that have happened on this drug. I can post you article after article mothers saying have I killed my child, did I kill my wife, etc. Yet I will take a drug like this with the list of side effects longer than my arm, what treats 1 thing but causes another whole list of problems.
Anyway I take this form and go through the questions with her, and guess what after I actually explain the questions nicely, she DROPS 20 points, guess what she is now somebody without depression of mild. From a doctors point of view she was a very depressant person. The same is true with my dad, a doctor prescribing him with antidepressants, I told my dad, DO NOT TAKE THEIR WORD and go to a psychiatrist, guess what he left without a condition at all, but he did land up having a SERVE issue coming off the depressants and getting some extreme causes of anxiety as well as started to become paranoid and feeling his life is in danger. These type of drugs should not be given by your local MD. I will be on Talk Radio 702 discussing this tomorrow morning with John Robbie if you would like to tune in and you more than welcome to make your comments public on air. Questions like do you still eat the same as you used to? OFCOURSE NOT! She is living a life of fitness model she is conservative with her food, yet she just got 4 points put onto her score. Do you still like doing the things you used to do? Guess what another 4 points, NO she doesn’t like to still do the same things as that was party and be wild, so guess what another 4 points, 10 points is the difference between severe and medium and another between low to nothing. Do you find this type of practice from the doctor that of a professional nature? NO! I find that reckless and should have your license revoked. Hence I will be on 702 tomorrow talking about this.

My experience with doctors from day 1 was, you head to a doctors room pretending to be sick and leave with a script for some nice drugs. They do not ‘really care’ about your problem, they are extremely busy and out of sight out of mind.

Now this is not even a touch on my experience with doctors, yet I should praise them and not bash them? If you feel what I have said is not justified and I should turn a blind eye, well then please let me know and from your abundant knowledge you have shared here I will do just that.

I have always praised your knowledge in this field, however I feel your knowledge is there due to your love of the sport and desire to study further in this field and not many doctors share a 10th of what you know about steroids and the effects on the body “Once again I’m saying this based on personal experience with the doctors I have worked with”

1 last example, I was having major issue with gyno and had surgery and it came back right afterwards, admin was kind enough to chat with you and you spoke about using bromocriptine and see how that worked. Well I spoke to another doctor about my condition and had 0% clue as to what could cause this when I mentioned maybe an issue with prolactin sides *BING* a light bulb went off. So I thank you again for your experience in this field but urge you to please try understand where we come from as the patient.

I am now researching iatrogenic andropause, thanks.

www.banglajol.info/index.php/TAJ/article/viewFile/3228/2714 Very good article describing andropause.

Im with Pump on this one. I wish more Dr's would consider "andro-pause" a problem as Doctari does. That was the reason for my "bashing" anyway. Only that. And Doctari acknowledges my points in his mail as well.
i have a Dr friends afterall.

I think the issue is, Doctari is "I'm guessing" one of those doctors that is constantly improving himself, just like his new studies "Masters Degree in Sports Medicine", who does that? If more doctors where like this then we all would have a better experience with them. I wish I was in Durban so I could cosult with him!

Thought he hailed from PE or East London?

Where does Doctari stay?

I'm not sure how much info I'm allowed to give but Milktuds is correct on one of those.

I'm not sure how much info I'm allowed to give but Milktuds is correct on one of those.

Off topic a bit, but whats Doctaris's take on 19 nor tests-leave well alone or use but hammer the pct?

I agree with Pump, there's a wide variety of doctors-some are quite knowledgeable-in fact some are a little overzealous. I had one doc who was quite keen to get me on a cycle when I was 20. And others who are completely anti steroids and don't seem to know a great deal.