Transition into PCT & off cycle

Good morning gentlemen. I just wanted to informally survey you all, based on your personal experience. When coming off a cycle, around what time do you start losing those muscle & strength gains, when do you lose the most fastest AND finally at around what time do you notice things levelling off?

Personally, I haven't lost anything since my 1st cycle. So to answer that based on my own experience, I lost the most between my last injection & the commencement of PCT.

I'm asking now because the subject was brought up by a friend of mine. He recently did a low dose testosterone cypionate-only bulking cycle (technically his 1st ever cycle). He started off at 80kg & went up to 95kg within 10 weeks. He gained a further 1,5kg during the almost 3 weeks of his PCT/ MSRP (he's still on PCT/ MSRP). His body fat percentage dropped from 12% to 10% & he stands in at a height of 1,81m.

Miguel, what is MSRP? I know you brought it up in a post a while back but refused to tell us what it is. Would you care to enlighten us.

To answer your question, I lose the most between cycles, usually start dropping weight a few weeks after PCT but this depends on what kind of cycle it is.
If I'm on a cutting cycle, I usually drop weight on-cycle due to diet & fat burning, bulking cycles I usually put on 5 - 8kg and lose 2 - 3kg after PCT if my diet remains constant.

Miguel wrote: Good morning gentlemen. I just wanted to informally survey you all, based on your personal experience. When coming off a cycle, around what time do you start losing those muscle & strength gains, when do you lose the most fastest AND finally at around what time do you notice things levelling off?

Personally, I haven't lost anything since my 1st cycle. So to answer that based on my own experience, I lost the most between my last injection & the commencement of PCT.

I'm asking now because the subject was brought up by a friend of mine. He recently did a low dose testosterone cypionate-only bulking cycle (technically his 1st ever cycle). He started off at 80kg & went up to 95kg within 10 weeks. He gained a further 1,5kg during the almost 3 weeks of his PCT/ MSRP (he's still on PCT/ MSRP). His body fat percentage dropped from 12% to 10% & he stands in at a height of 1,81m.

Either your friend is really gifted, or is scale is fucked?

Miguel wrote: Good morning gentlemen. I just wanted to informally survey you all, based on your personal experience. When coming off a cycle, around what time do you start losing those muscle & strength gains, when do you lose the most fastest AND finally at around what time do you notice things levelling off?

Personally, I haven't lost anything since my 1st cycle. So to answer that based on my own experience, I lost the most between my last injection & the commencement of PCT.

I'm asking now because the subject was brought up by a friend of mine. He recently did a low dose testosterone cypionate-only bulking cycle (technically his 1st ever cycle). He started off at 80kg & went up to 95kg within 10 weeks. He gained a further 1,5kg during the almost 3 weeks of his PCT/ MSRP (he's still on PCT/ MSRP). His body fat percentage dropped from 12% to 10% & he stands in at a height of 1,81m.

I keep all my gains too! havent lost a single KG. You wanna know what the secret is Miguel?

Ek spuit "mum for men" saam met my PCT. works like a charm!!!

@STUARTF Thanks for the feedback.

Honestly, 00pump, I'm not even going to dignify anything you say with a response. You are after all the same genius who, in my thread on gynaecomastia reversal stated that "it's stupid to use both clomid & letrozole at the same time, they both compete for the same receptors". And other such statements about letrozole & tamoxifen's effects on gynaecomastia which clearly flew in the face of comprehensive studies & research (on a side note, you'd be wasting your time using both letrozole & tamoxifen simultaneously). So clearly, to you, science bears no weight if it is contrary to your own personal experience.

Facts are facts, reality is reality. People won't redevelop gynaecomastia just because you say it can't be treated & certain people won't lose their gains just because you say they can't all be retained. If you don't believe me that's alright. State it once and move on.

But anyway, I digress. Back to the original topic of this thread...

Miguel, why did you never respond to your previous thread? I’m curious and now you start up almost the same questions again.

it’s almost like your waiting for enough people to reply to the forum and then you say, i have a magic formula that is going to help you keep all your gains. When asked what that formula was in the previous threads you never responded...this just pissed allot of people off.

Don’t expect people to take you seriously now! and don’t start insulting senior members of this forum!

* shakes head *

deja vu...

guys,it is possible for you to keep your gains post cycle,if your pct is solid and done correctly,you train heavy,you eat enough food,rest enough and keep stress down then why wouldnt you be able to keep you gains? i have had a few clients that keep their diet the same through pct and may loose 1/2 a kg through this period from maybe a bit of excess water retention...alot of guys seem to think that they cant keep gains from their cycles,it is possible,if you dont change the variable to much...how many guys fuck around after a cycle,dont train as hard and intensly,fuck around with their diet,go partying all night,all the things they werent doing on cycle... plenty... i have done cycles where i have kept nearly all my gains bar a bit of water dropping at the end....so it is possible depending on the variables.

Too hell with PCT! :evil: :woohoo: :evil: Stay on for life!!!

like i said it is all Dependant on variables...but i am not gonna argue and debate this with you as we both have our views,i have expressed mine saying it is possible to maintain most of your gains IF you allow for proper nutrition(for the gain in new muscle mass) not over training and getting in enough rest during the week to recover,thats what my side boils down to yes indefinably something will happen and you will loose muscle along the way but those are other variables thrown into the mix,i do see your side of it and agree with some points such as age etc and getting the flu,but from what i have experienced i have had guys keep all their gains from a cycle through pct and through the off period through proper nutrition, the user on this forum SASH can bare testament to this....

15kg gain with a 2 persentage point drop in bf on a low dose test cyp cycle??? your "magical" method doesn't by any chance make use of power balance bands...?

you don't contribute anything to the forum, you just piss us all off.

@Etwa I categorically stated in that thread that I would not divulge what MSRP is. I didn't just not respond. If your idea of "insulting" senior members is calling them out when they state false information on a thread which I am active on, then so be it. If you are of the same OPINION (i.e. not fact) as him, then you are free to provide evidence that the aromatase inhibitor letrozole, competetively binds to oestrogen receptors, in the same way that a SERM would. In fact, this is a challenge to you & anyone else to do the same!

@DJ "alot of guys seem to think that they can't keep gains from their cycles". Exactly, DJ. This mentality is prevalent from several BBs & forums. As a result of this self-imposed limitation, I know of no one else who's been able to circumvent "the crash". During his cycle, my friend followed a specific cycle protocol, training guidelines, dietary guidelines & supplementation/ nutritional guidelines as set out by me. And likewise for PCT & beyond. A very important (!) aspect to maintaining those gains is an airtight PCT. So much so that I plan MSRP around PCT instead of vice versa.

In the same manner that DJ charges for his services, the currency I work in is trust & loyalty. Knowledge is a "good" that evidences positive externalities. So once I divulge what MSRP is, I have no control over which ungrateful individuals benefit from my knowledge. I have to trust that the select people I've told keep it to themselves.

As for the ability to attain & maintain musculature beyond your genetic limits due to AAS, I can vouch for this. Based on personal experience with several willing test subjects, others & also biological mechanisms: satellite cells can fuse into existing mature muscle cells & add to their number of nuclei. Upon cessation of steroids, the added nuclei remain & hence the benefit is unreversed.

Also, take a look at this:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20713720

hmmm, this again...
Well im just a curious mind here, and id love to hear more details of your ideas miguel, and assess them from a practical and scientific perspective for myself.

In the answer to your question i lose a fair percentage of my gains, mainly during the interim between cycle and pct, and during early pct. I also notice that my body tends to restore itself to a certain stable point and weight.

Id gladly put myself up to be a forum test subject. I am interested in the basis of your technique, is it dietary, chemical or herbal that we are talking about?

Miguel wrote: @Etwa I categorically stated in that thread that I would not divulge what MSRP is. I didn't just not respond. If your idea of "insulting" senior members is calling them out when they state false information on a thread which I am active on, then so be it. If you are of the same OPINION (i.e. not fact) as him, then you are free to provide evidence that the aromatase inhibitor letrozole, competetively binds to oestrogen receptors, in the same way that a SERM would. In fact, this is a challenge to you & anyone else to do the same!

@DJ "alot of guys seem to think that they can't keep gains from their cycles". Exactly, DJ. This mentality is prevalent from several BBs & forums. As a result of this self-imposed limitation, I know of no one else who's been able to circumvent "the crash". During his cycle, my friend followed a specific cycle protocol, training guidelines, dietary guidelines & supplementation/ nutritional guidelines as set out by me. And likewise for PCT & beyond. A very important (!) aspect to maintaining those gains is an airtight PCT. So much so that I plan MSRP around PCT instead of vice versa.

In the same manner that DJ charges for his services, the currency I work in is trust & loyalty. Knowledge is a "good" that evidences positive externalities. So once I divulge what MSRP is, I have no control over which ungrateful individuals benefit from my knowledge. I have to trust that the select people I've told keep it to themselves.

As for the ability to attain & maintain musculature beyond your genetic limits due to AAS, I can vouch for this. Based on personal experience with several willing test subjects, others & also biological mechanisms: satellite cells can fuse into existing mature muscle cells & add to their number of nuclei. Upon cessation of steroids, the added nuclei remain & hence the benefit is unreversed.

Also, take a look at this:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20713720

Dont really see the point of the post. You want to share something? If not why are you posting? I dont get it

I'm also very interested in what Miguel is on about and its worth to at least hear what he has to say but if what he has to say in nothing then he doesn't add much value.

I lose most of my gains after PCT

Miguel, please don’t try to make a link between what you are doing and what DJ is doing. He is an active CONTRIBUTING member on this forum. He has helped many people get where they need to be without payment, go look at the number of posts he has done wrt diets, this was all pro bono work. For the individual that want to take it a step further and max their gains he offers help @ a charge. This does not mean they could not get there without his help.

You offer NO help whatsoever hence people doubt and criticise your credibility. Don’t expect people to jump when you give them no reason to.

Thanks for the feedback, Spike & Vega5. Anyone else?

"However you get a get that comes here and claims a statement and doesn't provide any credibility". How ironic that you should say this, 00pump. When you have done just that. Your statement remains immortalized in my profile signature. As a moderator, I would expect you to know better, but you proved to me long ago that even you don't understand the extent of your own ignorance.

I'm going to round this up by offering you the opportunity to once & for all provide us with evidence that letrozole has an affinity for oestrogen receptors (I will humbly concede if you are able to). Either you do that & practice what you preached or you remain, nothing in my eyes. Evidence pump, evidence...

You know what, I have nothing to prove to you. If I sat here and explained myself then I would stoop to your level.

I am going to ignore you from now on. I refuse to talk to you or comment on anything else you say. I will remove all my posts and comments towards you.

However if you upset any other members you will be banned and if this thread doesn't continue on topic it will be locked.

Are we talking about this article - (Damn good! Even if you guys dont agree with AR)

www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/anthony-r...masin-exemestane.htm

In the reasoning why you dont use Letrozole/adex (Type - II) AI's in your PCT??

jack thats one of a number of articles.. yes it is a good read and old AR does provide good findings, i'll give him that much

lol!! ok - so this is off topic but too funny!!

Every time i come into this thread, Miguel has been smited at least another 2 times! :pinch:

I was last on here before lunch (before 1pm) and the dude was on like 11 smites and now at 14:30pm its up to 13

Anyway...

As you were... :whistle:

"... and if this topic doesn't continue on topic it will be locked". Yet you yourself are contributing to its digression (once again, another example of hypocrisy in motion). Besides which, I've observed enough instances where a thread veers off topic & is instead split, not locked.

Did you see how easy it was for JR to post up one link, pump? He didn't even need to say much. But you in your wisdom decide that if there's no evidence/ factual grounding to support your own claim, you will opt to silence whoever questions you. An action that is akin to dictatorships opting to silence those who speak inconvenient truths, through violence. Or at worst, murder. Just in the same manner that you have threatened to do your worst, by banning me. I'd much rather that than stand idly by, soaking up your science fiction.

BOTTOM LINE: you made a claim, you can't support it. Your issue comes about as a result of you being corrected. Deal with it.

@JR Great article & one which I've read before. But it doesn't mention anything about letrozole binding to ERs like pump claimed (& consistently fails to prove). Only that it, like every other AI, competes for binding sites on the aromatase enzyme. Anyway, I had already mentioned earlier in this thread that using tamoxifen & letrozole simultaneousy leads to negative interaction. That was based on this study:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11850211

which states that tamoxifen used in conjunction with letrozole leads to substantially lowered plasma levels of letrozole. Whilst letrozole & arimidex had no effect on tamoxifen concentrations.

*Yawns*

Ok miguel/harry potter/david blane.

Its clear that you not going to tell us your so called 'secrets' but rather attack fellow contributing and MUCH more knowlegable members.

These guys are here day in and day out answering our question so if you not going to tell us anything then dont post.

You seem like an angry kido... go play in traffic or write fiction novels, yes thats what your claims are right now FICTION

Ok ok, i've got an idea. How about we all stop flaming each other and instead have a scientific and rational discussion. Miguel i appreciate the fact that you obviously have a good grounding in biochemistry and pharmacology, and most likely have a lot of knowledge to share, but I cant appreciate the attacks on pump, and vice versa. Yes pump may not always be correct, no one ever is, but he is a valued contributer to this forum and has the respect of all. Can we leave personality clashes outside and then maybe we can all learn something from each other.

Seriously, this jibing at each other is childish and annoying.


Back to science...

And that is all ive ever said, maybe not in those words. Miguel, please stop now, and lets put this to bay. You have -15 karma, the way you come across upsets people and everyone on this forum gets along. I am the first to ask when I dont know something and always thank those that give good advice. If you would like to be an active member on the forum, please can you justify what you say. The question you asked me before I have described in detail in a previous post on the forum. I apologise if I offended you, if you can start to be pleasant to others I will level your karma and you can help others with queries they might have and we all learn from each other. Thanks.