HCG Before PCT

I have had 4 people tell me to use the HCG during the lag time between my last test pin and PCT. Are there any benefits to doing this instead of HCG during the PCT as shown in the PCT section of this site?
What is the reason for waiting to use HCG as appose to using it straight after the cycle?

It will help with testicular atrophy, but i would still include it in pct.

Some people believe that HCG should be run prior to PCT because it can suppress natural test production.

I would only run HCG on-cycle if I am using a large test dosage 1000mg + per week. This would be just to preserve testicular function as Eidolon mentioned. For lower doasges I still think that it is ideal to stick with Doctari's protocol which specifically has clomid first then nolva and HCG in that order.

Yea I'm no where near that high a dose. I'm only running 400mg per week.
Is there an old thread where Doctari explains in detail why his PCT works so well?

Have a look at this thread: www.anabolicsteroids.co.za/forum/5-post-...ctari-s-pct-protocol

It appears that the combination of the clomid/nolva/HCG/aromasin is used in that order because
1)Clomid is used to initially stimulate and boost HPTA to kickstart natural test production as well as providing a block to estrogen rebound
2) The clomid is separated from the Nolva as the body does not want an excess of SERMS (nolva and clomid) as they are liver toxic.
3) The nolva is purely used for an anti-estrogen
4)HCG is then taken to keep the HPTA active by stimulating LH and FSH to be released
5)Aromasin is combined so that higher HCG dosages can be used and it also is used to stop any estro rebound once stopping HCG. It also works in combination with HCG to increase libido and sperm count.

Interesting stuff! Thanks for that. One other question: if SERMS is toxic on the liver then wouldn't it be a bad idea to bridge with Winny?

Stanabolic wrote: Interesting stuff! Thanks for that. One other question: if SERMS is toxic on the liver then wouldn't it be a bad idea to bridge with Winny?

Not really. You have to remember that you are running liver support sups during your cycle. After cycle till end pct you can use more potent liver cleansers and support. Once pct is finished you can run additional liver regeneration products like SAMe. I like to run my liver support through cycle till 1 or 2 months past pct. It works very well acc to the blood tests

@ StuartF: Would you say it is still adviseable to run HCH during pct even if you are not adding aromasin?

@ABC01: hey bud, yes i would definately still include HCG in the mix. Aromasin is beneficial but it is a kind of a luxury IMO. HCG is always essential for any highly suppressive cycle that either includes 19-nors or high test dosages.

STUARTF wrote: @ABC01: hey bud, yes i would definately still include HCG in the mix. Aromasin is beneficial but it is a kind of a luxury IMO. HCG is always essential for any highly suppressive cycle that either includes 19-nors or high test dosages.

Cool! I like running a small bit mid cycle (even though i dont do high test dosages)and then during pct. Its just a little insurence

STUARTF wrote: Have a look at this thread: www.anabolicsteroids.co.za/forum/5-post-...ctari-s-pct-protocol

4)HCG is then taken to keep the HPTA active by stimulating LH and FSH to be released

For those who care about the details: HCG Doesn't stimulate release of LH and FSH. :lol: Hear me out. HCG works by acting AS Leutenizing hormone, not stimulating it's production. It activates the same receptors as LH in the testes to produce testosterone. It is an analogue of LH which is where the confusion about 'releasing LH' comes in. It This is because "The alpha sub-unit (of HCG) is essentially identical to the alpha sub-units of the human pituitary gonadotropins, luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH)". "The action of HCG is virtually identical to that of pituitary LH, although HCG appears to have a small degree of FSH activity as well".

Quotes taken from: wiki.medpedia.com/Clinical:Pregnyl_%28go...tropin,_chorionic%29 .

So HCG directly stimulates the testes (to make testosterone), and not the pituitary gland (to release LH and FSH).

Muscleaddict wrote:

STUARTF wrote: Have a look at this thread: www.anabolicsteroids.co.za/forum/5-post-...ctari-s-pct-protocol

4)HCG is then taken to keep the HPTA active by stimulating LH and FSH to be released

For those who care about the details: HCG Doesn't stimulate release of LH and FSH. :lol: Hear me out. HCG works by acting AS Leutenizing hormone, not stimulating it's production. It activates the same receptors as LH in the testes to produce testosterone. It is an analogue of LH which is where the confusion about 'releasing LH' comes in. It This is because "The alpha sub-unit (of HCG) is essentially identical to the alpha sub-units of the human pituitary gonadotropins, luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH)". "The action of HCG is virtually identical to that of pituitary LH, although HCG appears to have a small degree of FSH activity as well".

Quotes taken from: wiki.medpedia.com/Clinical:Pregnyl_%28go...tropin,_chorionic%29 .

So HCG directly stimulates the testes (to make testosterone), and not the pituitary gland (to release LH and FSH).

And that's exactly why doc recommends Ovidrel over HCG.

admin wrote:

Muscleaddict wrote:

STUARTF wrote: Have a look at this thread: www.anabolicsteroids.co.za/forum/5-post-...ctari-s-pct-protocol

4)HCG is then taken to keep the HPTA active by stimulating LH and FSH to be released

For those who care about the details: HCG Doesn't stimulate release of LH and FSH. :lol: Hear me out. HCG works by acting AS Leutenizing hormone, not stimulating it's production. It activates the same receptors as LH in the testes to produce testosterone. It is an analogue of LH which is where the confusion about 'releasing LH' comes in. It This is because "The alpha sub-unit (of HCG) is essentially identical to the alpha sub-units of the human pituitary gonadotropins, luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH)". "The action of HCG is virtually identical to that of pituitary LH, although HCG appears to have a small degree of FSH activity as well".

Quotes taken from: wiki.medpedia.com/Clinical:Pregnyl_%28go...tropin,_chorionic%29 .

So HCG directly stimulates the testes (to make testosterone), and not the pituitary gland (to release LH and FSH).

And that's exactly why doc recommends Ovidrel over HCG.

But isnt it so that normal HCG has both the A AND B sub unit? Where Ovidrel has only the B. And since us men only need the B it makes Ovidrel the more efficient option right? So what do these studies say about the Beta sub-unit then?

Good question oom jack, but I'll have to make sure by doing some more research. It's a fairly complex system and it would be easy to misinterpret the studies since I have no medical training.

jackrabbit1 wrote: But isnt it so that normal HCG has both the A AND B sub unit? Where Ovidrel has only the B. And since us men only need the B it makes Ovidrel the more efficient option right? So what do these studies say about the Beta sub-unit then?

The USA's National Library of Medicine website says that HCG/Pregnyl's "alpha sub-unit is essentially identical to the alpha sub-units of the human pituitary gonadotropins, luteinizing hormone (LH) and follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH), as well as to the alpha sub-unit of human thyroid-stimulating hormone (TSH). The beta sub-units of these hormones differ in amino acid sequence." dailymed.nlm.nih.gov/dailymed/drugInfo.cfm?id=50559

The same site says about Ovidrel (also called rHCG or recombinant HCG): "The primary structure of the α - chain of r-hCG is identical to that of the α - chain of hCG, FSH and LH". "The β - chain has both O- and N-glycosylation sites and its structure and glycosylation pattern are also very similar to that of u-hCG." uHCG is urinary HCG (Pregnyl)

The Ovidrel and HCG information is the same as on the FDA's site at www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/l...../021149s020lbl.pdf and www.accessdata.fda.gov/drugsatfda_docs/l...../017692s021lbl.pdf .

The alpha sub units of LH, Ovidrel and HCG all have a 92 amino acid chain with the same amino acids. So according to the above data the beta sub units of HCG and Ovidrel are different to LH, both B subunits have 145 amino acids vs LH which has 120 amino acids. That's all I can tell.

Would be nice to have an expert clear this all up.

All i know is that each time i use HCG my balls get very sensitive. Its almost like a aching feeling the entire day

ABC01 wrote: All i know is that each time i use HCG my balls get very sensitive. Its almost like a aching feeling the entire day

Yep, I also sometimes get a sore feeling in my balls on HCG. Freaky.