DOMS desirable? Overtraining?

Hi,

DOMS:
I have always believed that DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness) is a desirable effect when training, cause it refers to the millions of minor tears of the muscle fibres that occured during training.
Furthermore, I believe that one should not train the specific muscle group again, until the soreness has passed...

Overtraining:
Is overtraining just something that happens if I train a muscle group too often? or can overtraining occur in a specified training session?

Lets look at an example of bicep training:
21's with EZ bar- 3Sets
Seated Hammer Culrs- 4Sets 12/10/8/6 Reps (with progressive overload)
Preacher Curls- 4Sets 12/10/8/6 Reps (with progressive overload)
Concentration Culrs- 4Sets 12/10/8/6 Reps (with progressive overload)
Chin-ups - 3Sets too Failure

Asuming you can do 10Reps to failure - You have essentially done 237Reps just for biceps.
Can overtraing occur within this training session? or will overtraining happen if I train it within the next 3/4days again?

If a bicep training program looks like this for the next two months, and I do arms only once a week... will I overtrain my arms/biceps?

My theory once again is: Overtraining will only occur if the muscle did not have enough time to rest, recover and recuperate and overtraining won't occur within a specified training session - Which also translates too a muscle should not be trained whilst it is still sore(cause obviously the recovery process has not been completed yet.)

My question(s) is actually: Is my theory in order?
When will I know that the muslce has fully recovered, and that it can be trained again?

Thanx.

err, when the pain goes away! I dunno, but your theory sounds "sound" Think you about right!

ummm... Anyone wanna help me out here please??

well i read somewhere that the muscle burn you get when you train to failure is not desirable for max muscle growth but we all do it and we grow so i think if you train hard and eat right you gonna grow no matter what and if you give your muscles a decent recovery time.....

As fas as I have it, the burn you feel when training is due to the build up of lactic acid - and it is a defense mechanism of the body.
Build up of lactic acid is not responsible for causing DOMS either...

But ya, I suppose to some extent you're right. We all train to failure (or until the "burn" becomes to much too handle)

I was just wondering if anyone could support my theory, and to find out exactly how/when overtraining occurs - and how to properly avoid it...

Everyone will have a different theory here,,

By my reconing,,,

If you are using enough juice,, overtraining is really not an issue.. your body will remain anabolic,,, Overtraining is a concept for natural bodybuilders going catabolic due to too much cortisol,,,, but if there are enough anaboiics in your bloodstream,, that effect is pretty much negated..

There is no such thing as overtarining....only under eating.

Ok thats not 100% true....but its close. Proffessional athletes can train all week. Eventually your body will adapt, like it does to everything.

If you're worried about cortisol, take about a gram of Vitamin C after your workout.

OK about your arm theory,
I know it's jsut a theory and just an example butl I wouldn't train my biceps that hard.
They a small muslce group and you pretty much use them quite allot when you training back.
I would stick to 3 exercise with drop sets and then maybe do 2 heavy bicep exercise before/after training back.
If you on gear your recovery time will better and providing you feed you body then that muscle should be good to go again within 72hrs.

But then again I started training my calves ever day for one week to see what would happen.
I could see a difference. I trained them even if they were sore the following day.
So I guess it depends on the muscle group and how suborn it is.

This is just my personal experience and training style... so use it, don't use it!

As for the "burn sensation"... Normally when you go really heavy and do low reps (6- you don't get as much of a lactic acid build up as you would say with a lighter weight @ 12-15 reps. Maybe go heavy then go into a drop set... get the best of both worlds Find it works for me.

Skyth

Thanx for all the input...

And I also love drop sets...and giant sets, oh and supersets! hehe...

But Im not on juice, as a matter of fact - I have only done one course... All the other gains I've made thus far was just eating, sleeping and training my ass off... as we all do off course.
I don't know if its just me, but the juice helped, but when I stopped and after pct it felt like I lost most of the gains - sure there was alot of water retention... but oh well...!

I'm considering DJ's recommendation to go on an EQ+Test cycle. But I'll consider it only when I feel I have hit a plateau in the growth again.

I'm with a personal trainer who has a Doctorate in Sport Physiology, Human Anatomy and Biogenetics.

But he currently changed the training prog again (which happens every 2 months)and has me training 5 Sets 6/6/4/4/4 Reps which is all cool - my problem is just we train the same body part 3times a week...

That is what bothers me... I think I might be overtraining...even though I eat right! My strength is less on a Thursday, than on a Monday... which tells me the muscles didn't have enough time to recuperate.

Maybe he implemented this strategy just as some "shock therapy" for the muscles.