Normal Testosterone Levels

This might sound like a strange question, please don't laugh. I ask this because I have been seeing an Endocrinologist and a Urologist for the past 2 years, as suggested by this forum, and we are not making the progress I am happy with.

In short, my pituary gland is not sending the signals to my body to produce enough Testosterone. When I was first tested about 23 months ago, my testosterone level was 6.3 - I was just totally exhausted, always tired. I was at the point of trying steroids, but this forum suggested I see the specialists first. And I am glad that I did. It has just been a really long journey, and still I am not where I want to be.

Ok, so, in the last 2 years we managed to get my levels up to about 20. But I am still battling with weakness and fatigue. I don't know if I should add that my thyroid is also underactive (long story, but my body is attacking my thyroid (some thyroid auto-immune thing), and it cannot be treated, because when they treat it, my body attacks it even more and I get very sick).

Anyway, back to my question I want to ask:

The Urologist boosted my testosterone during the winter, and when it went above 20, I started feeling better - I started feeling like a human being again. But then he said that 20 is high, and he wants to lower my testosterone levels.

Now we are dropping my levels a bit, but now I feel tired (sick) again. And with the tiredness comes depression. Those who have had low levels will understand.

Question: If you take 4 different men, and they all have the same level, lets say 20 ... will they all feel the same ? Or do some men require more testosterone than other men just to feel the same ?

I tried to make it short yet understandable, please bear with me ...

My personal opinion / feeling, is that we are all different, and just like we each require, for example, a different RDA in vitamins, we will vary in the requirement of testosterone. I am just wondering, but how much ?

When my levels went above 20, I started finding myself again, I started feeling human again. And me being the patient, and the Urologist being the specialist, I don't want to insist on him upping the dose ..... in any case, I don't think he would do as I ask really. He has professional reasons for being on the conservative side, and I understand that.

Dude. Been down this exact road before. Minus the thyroid issue, otherwise exact.

What do you mean the urologist boosted your test? HCG?

Also, give us the units the test was done and is it Free Testosterone or Total Testosterone?

Furk wrote: Dude. Been down this exact road before. Minus the thyroid issue, otherwise exact.

What do you mean the urologist boosted your test? HCG?

Also, give us the units the test was done and is it Free Testosterone or Total Testosterone?

No HCG. I only get treated with Nebido injections. We started with every 12 weeks, which is apparently the norm. But it did not affect my levels at all, and I would drop back down to 6.3 again.

Then we went to every 8 weeks, still not enough. Then every 7 weeks, then every 6 weeks.

Now my levels are:
Total - 20
Free - 380

Now he decided to move the injections to every 8 weeks again, but I don't feel better yet, so I am very disappointed that he moved it from every 6 weeks now to every 8 weeks.

Sorry, in short he boosted my levels by just injecting sooner - went from every 12 weeks, to every 8 weeks, to every 7 weeks, to every 6 weeks.

Now back to 8 weeks again

You are on hormone replacement therapy, not being treated to fix your natural testosterone production. Lets clear that up.

Nebido does not work for everyone. The time between injections is simply too long for many guys and you start feeling crap again a few weeks after the injection. I would have dropped this endo a long time ago. The average male in their 20s and 30s has a test level higher than 20. Maybe it's because your E2 is too high?



Many doctors who specialise in androgen replacement therapy don't choose nebido/test undecanoate as the best method. It is the most convenient, yes because of the infrequent injections. But for the least side effects and more stables hormone levels, more frequent and lower dosed injections are better.

Muscleaddict wrote: You are on hormone replacement therapy, not being treated to fix your natural testosterone production. Lets clear that up.

Nebido does not work for everyone. The time between injections is simply too long for many guys and you start feeling crap again a few weeks after the injection. I would have dropped this endo a long time ago. The average male in their 20s and 30s has a test level higher than 20. Maybe it's because your E2 is too high?

Thank you so much for your reply. I will reply in bits, I am still learning (my doctors are not very informative, they just look at the numbers and then treat me.) I have questions, but they don't answer all my questions.

First question here, if you don't mind: What is my E2 ?

PS. I have to add -

My Urogolist says he has not seen a patient like me before - he says most of his patients get injected every 12 weeks. He has a couple of patients who get injections every 8 weeks, but not many.

The Urologist says, in Afrikaans, "my lyf VREET testosteroon soos hy nog nooit gesien het nie".

So another question is: why does my body eat testostone faster than other people / his other patients ?

Sounds like he is stuck on using nebido and either not open to other methods or he doesn't bother trying. Good luck, because he is wasting your time. Post your questions on www.allthingsmale.com forum where the doc John Crisler is a real expert on TRT who has tried everything.

What he is saying about your body chowing up testosterone is just because he doesn't know what to do. Yes it sounds cocky coming from me since he is the specialist and wtf do I know right, but let's not beat around the bush. He is supposed to know what to do. That is his job and if he can't answer your questions like you say then you should find another doc.

Sweet mother of ****. I see you've been posting about this here for 2 years now! :blink:

Colt wrote: First question here, if you don't mind: What is my E2 ?

You should know this by now after 2 years of trying to fix your T levels.

anabolicsteroids.co.za/forum/2-anabolic-...oids/122784-also-new

1.5 years after first posting here that your body burns up testosterone too quickly you're still asking the same thing and still on nebido! I feel for your situation, but I spent a LONG time answering many of your questions before so this really rubs me the wrong way.

Muscleaddict wrote: Sweet mother of ****. I see you've been posting about this here for 2 years now! :blink:

Colt wrote: First question here, if you don't mind: What is my E2 ?

If you haven't bothered to educate yourself a bit in 2 years I'm not going to spoonfeed you.

anabolicsteroids.co.za/forum/2-anabolic-...oids/122784-also-new

1.5 years after first posting here that your body burns up testosterone too quickly you're still asking the same thing and still on nebido! I feel for your situation, but I spent a LONG time answering many of your questions before so this really rubs me the wrong way.

It has been a very long journey. And I started out extremely sick, and tired. And getting injections every 12 weeks did not help. I was sick for a very long time, and even in hospital for a couple of days.

Some days I don't even have the strength to get up, let alone doing research. I am so tired.

I hear you. I will try and read more. I have been reading about this, and asking questions. I have a friend who helps me when I am too tired to help myself - then she makes doctors appointments for me.

And we have been speaking to her GP as well, who unfortunately is about 600 kms from where I live. He treats his patients by giving them smaller doses but more regularly, like you mentioned higher up.
He has a different view from my Urogolist, unfortunately they disagree about treatment, and I am stuck with my doctor for now.

Muscleaddict wrote:

The column on the right, "95th percentile", this was the levels of 95% of their test subjects ?

Muscleaddict wrote: Nebido does not work for everyone. The time between injections is simply too long for many guys and you start feeling crap again a few weeks after the injection. I would have dropped this endo a long time ago. The average male in their 20s and 30s has a test level higher than 20. Maybe it's because your E2 is too high?

I don't think my E2 has been tested. Maybe right in the beginning - but if it was, they did not tell me. With the TRT, my testosterone (total and free) is tested every 6 - 8 weeks. These are the only number I follow at the moment. And then also my vit D, because of the link between testosterone and vit D.

Colt wrote: And then also my vit D, because of the link between testosterone and vit D.

Vitamin D plays a role in natural testosterone production. There is no important link for you because you are on testosterone replacement therapy and vitamin D has no effect. It has no link to your condition.

Muscleaddict wrote:

Colt wrote: And then also my vit D, because of the link between testosterone and vit D.

Vitamin D plays a role in natural testosterone production. There is no important link for you because you are on testosterone replacement therapy and vitamin D has no effect. It has no link to your condition.

Thank you so much - the light bulb just went on. With TRT, you inject the testo, so vit D won't affect it then. Thank you MA.

Muscleaddict wrote:

Colt wrote: And then also my vit D, because of the link between testosterone and vit D.

Vitamin D plays a role in natural testosterone production. There is no important link for you because you are on testosterone replacement therapy and vitamin D has no effect. It has no link to your condition.

Could a lack of vit D have broken my HPTA axis ?

Colt wrote: Could a lack of vit D have broken my HPTA axis ?

Severely doubt that, but I'm not a medical doctor.

One stage of my "searching for treatment" was mega-dosing with Vitamin D and Iron, both were rock bottom. The effect it had definitely make an improvement to my general health and well being, but didn't sway testosterone levels too much.

Furk wrote:

Colt wrote: Could a lack of vit D have broken my HPTA axis ?

Severely doubt that, but I'm not a medical doctor.

One stage of my "searching for treatment" was mega-dosing with Vitamin D and Iron, both were rock bottom. The effect it had definitely make an improvement to my general health and well being, but didn't sway testosterone levels too much.

Thank you Furk. I also heard that vit D is getting much more attention lately, and that it affects much more than just testosterone. Like you mentioned, general health and well being.

I hear that lack of vit D can cause depression, and I also read that lack of vit D is related to Asthma in children, and in muscle movement in general.

A topic I want to read more about.

A friend of mine's son, he is now 19, also battles with low testosterone.

Their GP decided to treat him with vit D. His level was 7, if I remember right, when they started treating him. And just by supplementing with vit D, they got his level up to 19.

In this case of course, his HTPA axis then is not broken, but his low levels are caused by defficiencies. Very interesting to me, and I am still learning.

Wow, colt. 2 years or so where you feel soo shit and weak that you physically cannot get out of bed and you are STILL with the same Dr who clearly use fucking useless if these issues are caused because of low T levels.

If I were in your boat I'd have purchased some Test Cyp and started injecting myself bi-weekly at 50mg per injection (100mg per week) as a quick Google search seems to reveal 100mg a week is a good starting dose for TRT.

If I were in your shoes I'd have researched all over the web and done the Doctors work for him and found a Dr who will give me what I want - otherwise I'd source it elsewhere and pop into a Doc every now and then for check ups or until I found a Doc who agrees with me and seems to know what they are doing.



E2 is Estradiol, which is basically your estrogen levels. I stand to be correct, however I think that your E2:Testosterone ratio needs to be a certain ratio or greater otherwise you do not get the positive effects of the testosterone. This happens quite often when people are given Clomid to try and boost their test levels as Clomid often increases the estrogen levels a bit (at least this is what I had read on quite a few forums).
I am certainly no expert and no medical Doctor though.


If more frequent injections have been proven to make a difference and make you feel better then chances are if you were to switch over to a different testosterone (one with a shorter esther) and do bi-weekly injections, it will work for you. I'd have at least tried it after getting practically nowhere after 2 years.

Thank you so much PsyCLown. I APPRECIATE every bit of information I can get. Honestly.

Nebido is a slow releasing Testo, so it is quite a long journey you embark on. It took us 3 months to realise the 12 week injections do not work. My total T was 6.3, and after 12 weeks I dropped back to 6.3.
So we went to 8 week injections. So you take 12 weeks + 8 weeks + 8 weeks .......... etc., and suddenly a lot of time has gone by.

And a specialist is not just going to treat you aggresively, I want to say in Afrikaans, "hy gaan nie die testo net gooi nie"
I understand he has a responsibility, and from his side he will treat you conservatively. He told me that he had a patient who's levels rose to high, the guy got aggressive at the office, and lost his work because of aggression. So I am trying to understand the doctors point of view as well.

But yes, 2 years is a long time. At least my levels are higher than we started off with, but they are not stable.
With depo-testo your injections are every 2 weeks (if you go to a doctor), and your levels rise and fall over 2 weeks.
With Nebido the effect is exactly the same, just over a longer period. I am now on 8 weekly injection, but after an injections my levels also rise, and in the 2nd half my levels fall again. And my body does not like that - those who have used Nebido before will understand. I actually think anyone who uses steroids will also understand, because you raise your levels, and then they drop. And with that comes emotional side effects.

Thank you so much for your answer. I really do appreciate it.

PS.yes, my brother and his wife also said I must try a 2nd opinion. They have a friend who fights the same battle as me, but his doctor boosts him when he needs a boost. Plus he gets something else together with his Nebido (I do not have the detail unfortuantely). It is just that they live very far from me. But yes, it is an option to make an appointment with that Urologist to get a 2nd opinion now.

I think it is time. It is tough, because with Nebiddo you do not get quick results - weeks add up quickly and become months.

Colt wrote: He told me that he had a patient who's levels rose to high, the guy got aggressive at the office, and lost his work because of aggression. So I am trying to understand the doctors point of view as well.

What a load a KUK!!! Every guy on this forum has testosterone higher than this guy when we are on cycle, and nobody gets fired for aggression. Drop this doctor yesterday.

Colt wrote: With depo-testo your injections are every 2 weeks (if you go to a doctor), and your levels rise and fall over 2 weeks.

No that is old school thinking. That might be a standard procedure to start off with, but there are many different protocols to use test cyp for TRT. The doctor should adjust dose and injection frequency depending on the patient. More frequent injections will always make you feel better than doing a higher dose with a longer wait. It can also be injected subcutaneously, which is proven.

TRT expert Dr Crisler has been on TRT for 20 years and once he switched to sub-q cypionate shots that is what he stuck with.

Muscleaddict wrote:

Colt wrote: He told me that he had a patient who's levels rose to high, the guy got aggressive at the office, and lost his work because of aggression. So I am trying to understand the doctors point of view as well.

What a load a KUK!!! Every guy on this forum has testosterone higher than this guy when we are on cycle, and nobody gets fired for aggression. Drop this doctor yesterday.

Colt wrote: With depo-testo your injections are every 2 weeks (if you go to a doctor), and your levels rise and fall over 2 weeks.

No that is old school thinking. That might be a standard procedure to start off with, but there are many different protocols to use test cyp for TRT. The doctor should adjust dose and injection frequency depending on the patient. More frequent injections will always make you feel better than doing a higher dose with a longer wait. It can also be injected subcutaneously, which is proven.

TRT expert Dr Crisler has been on TRT for 20 years and once he switched to sub-q cypionate shots that is what he stuck with.

Thank you MA, for your comment on the aggression.

And regarding the more frequent injections - my body agrees with you. In the 1st phase (half) of my injection, when the Nebido kicks in, I feel very happy (I am in a good mood). In the 2nd half I am in a bad mood. My body does not like this rising and falling. More frequent injections will stabilise that.

A lot to think about ... (for me).

Thank you MA.