SARMS Cycle with Low Test Levels

Hi,

First off thank you to the admin team and developers of this platform, it is a relief to have topics such as this being discussed and explained in such detail so as prevent us newbies from getting bad advice and wrecking our bodies beyond repair

Now for the reason of this post, I had recently been on a cut for the past 2 years and dropped from 88kg to a low of 65.9kg, height is 171cm (manlet I know...), age 31. Not sure whether I caught the flu or a bug and went to the doctor and he suggested bloods, I threw in a T test as well as I was curious to know what my levels were. Results came back and showed a total T of 440ng/dl to which the doc replied all was 100%. Bear in mind that I am 31 years old and been training and dieting consistently and with reasonable intensity for a while.

At the time I had done a bit of light reading on the topic of Test and thought that this was too low for a person of my age and only to have my suspicions raise when my 52 year old work colleague went for a T test and showed a similar result of 411ng/dl.

Now I do realise that this reading differs per individual and might be fine for my height/build etc. But would it be wise for someone with my readings to dive into a SARMS cycle with a low level of T or should I dive into something like Test Cyp in a therapeutic amount?

From what I understand, SARMS will suppress natural T levels and as a result low estrogen sides can occur or vice versa high estrogen sides etc etc. Bear in mind I have never used any PEDs or SARMS as yet and this would be my first cycle of anything PED related. Proposed first cycle is Ostarine coupled with a bit of Cardarine


Some data to work off:

Age = 31
Height = 171cm
Weight = 65.9kg
Body Fat = 15.8% (morning weigh-in with Tanita Scale)
Diet While on cut = 1800Kcal (150g Protein, Carb and Fat Variable for diet consistency)
Started Training at age 13

Testosterone = 15.5 nmol/l
SHBG = 20.4 nmol/l
Free T = 408.9 pmol/l

FT4 = 15.7 pmol/l
TSH = 2.04 miu/ml

VFI wrote: Hi,

First off thank you to the admin team and developers of this platform, it is a relief to have topics such as this being discussed and explained in such detail so as prevent us newbies from getting bad advice and wrecking our bodies beyond repair

Now for the reason of this post, I had recently been on a cut for the past 2 years and dropped from 88kg to a low of 65.9kg, height is 171cm (manlet I know...), age 31. Not sure whether I caught the flu or a bug and went to the doctor and he suggested bloods, I threw in a T test as well as I was curious to know what my levels were. Results came back and showed a total T of 440ng/dl to which the doc replied all was 100%. Bear in mind that I am 31 years old and been training and dieting consistently and with reasonable intensity for a while.

At the time I had done a bit of light reading on the topic of Test and thought that this was too low for a person of my age and only to have my suspicions raise when my 52 year old work colleague went for a T test and showed a similar result of 411ng/dl.

Now I do realise that this reading differs per individual and might be fine for my height/build etc. But would it be wise for someone with my readings to dive into a SARMS cycle with a low level of T or should I dive into something like Test Cyp in a therapeutic amount?

From what I understand, SARMS will suppress natural T levels and as a result low estrogen sides can occur or vice versa high estrogen sides etc etc. Bear in mind I have never used any PEDs or SARMS as yet and this would be my first cycle of anything PED related. Proposed first cycle is Ostarine coupled with a bit of Cardarine


Some data to work off:

Age = 31
Height = 171cm
Weight = 65.9kg
Body Fat = 15.8% (morning weigh-in with Tanita Scale)
Diet While on cut = 1800Kcal (150g Protein, Carb and Fat Variable for diet consistency)
Started Training at age 13

Testosterone = 15.5 nmol/l
SHBG = 20.4 nmol/l
Free T = 408.9 pmol/l

FT4 = 15.7 pmol/l
TSH = 2.04 miu/ml

From what I understand you got hormone profile after a 2 year cut and while being sick?
Get these retested when you are "better".

Get tested for hemochromatosis or any other secondary cause of low T (pituitary adenoma, brain trauma etc).
Otherwise, paired with low T symptoms, look into TRT.

SARMS are suppressive and we don't have enough research to support their use in a medical setting.
Testosterone and DHT derivatives are safe and work.

A cycle is counterintuitive if you are hypogonadal or low T.
You need therapeutic intervention, not a temporary boost (unless your doc uses clomiphene, I guess..)

If you want to run supraphysiological levels of hormones, you can do this while on TRT, taking small periods of higher doses and then dropping back down to therapeutic baseline.

Your bloods do not look terrible. Do you drink any alcohol? When testing testosterone levels, you need to ensure your body is at its optimal. Make sure you have slept 8+ hours the last couple nights, stay far away from alcohol even if its 1 drink. Also if you have not been training hard or on the flip side if you have been training to often you testosterone will be lower. Then you have medication that lowers it too. You also say a cut, which means you could be losing all the good nutrition that further helps elevate testosterone.

@MPhilosopher

Thank you for the feedback, the one challenge I seem to face is that doctors dont want to test for low T or even consider TRT when you fall within the reference range

Will however get retested and post results

@OOpump

Haven't been drinking alcohol or smoking cigarettes for the past 3 years. Sleep hasn't been to great though. As for the visit to the doc, the reason was that my sugar levels dropped too low 2 times in one week thus the tests. All came back clear though

As above, will retest and post results

For reference, what tests will be a good baseline to get if planning to go on cycle?

Example:

- Testosterone test
- E2 test
- Liver and kidney function
- HDL, LDL etc

at 65 at 171cm you must look tiny, but also how long was your cut diet? cos that will play a role in your test levels being down, too aggressive, and too long a cut, then you are going to tank a lot of things.

at this stage I wouldn't even consider upping calories, train no more than 4 days a week, add in that anabolic beast by TNT mercury as well as the test booster from NPL and those levels should go up to a decent level.

sorry i see 2 years? fml that's a long time, that would have resulted in muscle loss for sure.

You need to reverse diet and put on muscle. build calories up, train hard, and your test levels will bounce back very quickly.

you will find once you get your calories to 2200-2400 daily all your issues will come right.

Also, get your T levels tested first thing in the morning when they are at their highest. It generally will make noticeable a difference compared to testing in the afternoon for someone your age.

If you have been eating 150g protein per day as you say, and have been training semi-consistently then something is off. Have you been starving yourself or yo-yo dieting? You should have easily built some more muscle mass along with losing the fat. I don't think SARMs are your answer yet because you need to first know how to build a solid base to start with or you'll just lose all your gains. Even with very normal genetics You should quite easily be able to gain 6-7Kg of muscle at that bf% if you are training properly with an 'ok' diet, and no drugs.

VFI wrote: @MPhilosopher

Thank you for the feedback, the one challenge I seem to face is that doctors dont want to test for low T or even consider TRT when you fall within the reference range

Will however get retested and post results

For bloodwork, provided you can do some research and see which tests actually matter, you can pay for the bloodwork privately - no doc needed.

I mean the whole reference range is kind of a retarded concept.
Men NEED to be at the upper range for 'Free T'. This is a no-brainer and unfortunately you will have to find a doc that understands this.

Rule out all other possibilities and then you can hop on TRT.
Do not for a second buy into being "in range" if you feel like shit and are well under 800ng/dL.


*Maybe you can contact admin here and ask for doc guidance I am not sure, other members can let you know I am sure

Empire wrote: at 65 at 171cm you must look tiny, but also how long was your cut diet? cos that will play a role in your test levels being down, too aggressive, and too long a cut, then you are going to tank a lot of things.

at this stage I wouldn't even consider upping calories, train no more than 4 days a week, add in that anabolic beast by TNT mercury as well as the test booster from NPL and those levels should go up to a decent level.

The cut was over a period of 2 years but did take breaks in-between in order to settle at that bodyweight, and yes, after losing all that kgs I look helluva tiny.

Already started on the reverse diet, back up to 70kgs, just taking it easy for a while

Here is how the 2 years progressed over time:

imgur.com/gallery/GOLHhlq

Thank you for the advice and feedback

Muscleaddict wrote: Also, get your T levels tested first thing in the morning when they are at their highest. It generally will make noticeable a difference compared to testing in the afternoon for someone your age.

If you have been eating 150g protein per day as you say, and have been training semi-consistently then something is off. Have you been starving yourself or yo-yo dieting? You should have easily built some more muscle mass along with losing the fat. I don't think SARMs are your answer yet because you need to first know how to build a solid base to start with or you'll just lose all your gains. Even with very normal genetics You should quite easily be able to gain 6-7Kg of muscle at that bf% if you are training properly with an 'ok' diet, and no drugs.

So the T test was done at around 10:00am but had to do it fasted due to the HBA1C, will follow the same approach of a morning test for the next run.

No yoyo dieting just a consistent deficit with breaks of about a week at maintenance or above in-between, training splits I followed in between were:

1. Full body 3 times a week, Low, medium and High intensity days
2. Legs, Push, Pull once a week higher volume
3. Legs Push Pull twice a week equated volume

Tracked workouts and increased intensity using microplates

See below link to progress pics of the 2+ years, nowhere close to good genetics but its what I could achieve in that space of time

imgur.com/gallery/GOLHhlq

You doing a good job man, hard work. +1

MPhilosopher wrote:

VFI wrote: @MPhilosopher

Thank you for the feedback, the one challenge I seem to face is that doctors dont want to test for low T or even consider TRT when you fall within the reference range

Will however get retested and post results

For bloodwork, provided you can do some research and see which tests actually matter, you can pay for the bloodwork privately - no doc needed.

I mean the whole reference range is kind of a retarded concept.
Men NEED to be at the upper range for 'Free T'. This is a no-brainer and unfortunately you will have to find a doc that understands this.

Rule out all other possibilities and then you can hop on TRT.
Do not for a second buy into being "in range" if you feel like shit and are well under 800ng/dL.


*Maybe you can contact admin here and ask for doc guidance I am not sure, other members can let you know I am sure

Thanks for the advice, will rule out all probabilities first. TRT from what I understand is a lifelong journey and shouldn't be taking lightly

Oupa wrote: You doing a good job man, hard work. +1

Thanks, hoping to take it up a few levels in the years to come

Oupa is right, great work..

VFI wrote: So the T test was done at around 10:00am but had to do it fasted due to the HBA1C, will follow the same approach of a morning test for the next run.

No yoyo dieting just a consistent deficit with breaks of about a week at maintenance or above in-between, training splits I followed in between were:

1. Full body 3 times a week, Low, medium and High intensity days
2. Legs, Push, Pull once a week higher volume
3. Legs Push Pull twice a week equated volume

Tracked workouts and increased intensity using microplates

See below link to progress pics of the 2+ years, nowhere close to good genetics but its what I could achieve in that space of time

According to this study below Test levels drop significantly after 9am in men under ±45 . With an average 207 ng/dL points lower when tested later in the day. That is on the high end compared to other info I've seen which is usually ±60-100ng/dL less, so it can vary by quite a lot.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4501456/

You don't look like only 65Kg. That's a great transformation so far.

It's good to switch up your training program regularly, but for guys who really struggle to gain muscle mass the full body 3 times a week approach is really not optimal. But it's fine if you are still switching it up regularly with training to failure with heavy compound lifts where you know you can't train that muscle again for at least 3 days.

Muscleaddict wrote:

VFI wrote: So the T test was done at around 10:00am but had to do it fasted due to the HBA1C, will follow the same approach of a morning test for the next run.

No yoyo dieting just a consistent deficit with breaks of about a week at maintenance or above in-between, training splits I followed in between were:

1. Full body 3 times a week, Low, medium and High intensity days
2. Legs, Push, Pull once a week higher volume
3. Legs Push Pull twice a week equated volume

Tracked workouts and increased intensity using microplates

See below link to progress pics of the 2+ years, nowhere close to good genetics but its what I could achieve in that space of time

According to this study below Test levels drop significantly after 9am in men under ±45 . With an average 207 ng/dL points lower when tested later in the day. That is on the high end compared to other info I've seen which is usually ±60-100ng/dL less, so it can vary by quite a lot.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4501456/

You don't look like only 65Kg. That's a great transformation so far.

It's good to switch up your training program regularly, but for guys who really struggle to gain muscle mass the full body 3 times a week approach is really not optimal. But it's fine if you are still switching it up regularly with training to failure with heavy compound lifts where you know you can't train that muscle again for at least 3 days.

that's a big decrease in T, think I'll schedule the test for much earlier.

65kg was the lowest I could get to before the body said no more, resetting cals as empire suggested, will lean gain for a bit and cut down again. Looking to get that deep ab cuts on the next round

well aat 65kgs, you look great, well done, i thought you were basically going for the idea of being a marathon runner at that level.


looking at your abdominal body fat stores, your insulin sensitivity isn't great, and that can be indicative of LOW test and HIGH estrogen, which your blood confirms.

because your insulin sensitivity is impaired, I would suggest a diet that is 40% protein, 30% carbs and 30% fats. the elevated fat levels will also allow for your test to bounce back.

Empire wrote: well aat 65kgs, you look great, well done, i thought you were basically going for the idea of being a marathon runner at that level.


looking at your abdominal body fat stores, your insulin sensitivity isn't great, and that can be indicative of LOW test and HIGH estrogen, which your blood confirms.

because your insulin sensitivity is impaired, I would suggest a diet that is 40% protein, 30% carbs and 30% fats. the elevated fat levels will also allow for your test to bounce back.

thanks for the solid advice Empire, will implement on next run, should I adopt this approach while in a deficit?

That 2 year transformation is insane. You look amazing bro