Feeling Like CRAP!!!! Need advice

Hey guys,

I have a few questions so please see if you can answer each of them.

1 - 2 weeks ago I posted about painful small lumps behind my nipples and I received different advice. I decided to go with what my supplier said to do as I really trust him and respect his knowledge. His advise was to take Letro. 5 drops a day until the pain went away and then to go down to 3 drops a day until I finish the cycle. Since being on Letro my cardio has CRASHED extremely badly. My joints are murdering me, especially the shoulders. Is this all due to the Letro?

2 - I had my last shot of test prop 11 days ago, my last tbol 4 days ago and my last proviron yesterday and I am hating life. have never felt so useless at training. Can I start my pct now or should I wait a bit longer? (PCT is HCG, Clomid and Nolva)

3 - Can I stop with the Letro or should I continue taking it throughout my PCT?

4 - Once off the Letro how long will it take for me to return to normal again, in ability and joints?

5 - I feel weaker than I was before I started my cycle, will my pct help balance this out?

Any advice and help will be greatly appreciated

how are your nipples? are the lumps gone?

Its most likely the letro thats fucking you...Next time get adex.

Hows your nipples doing?

No letro during pct, clomid for a week 100mg, then nolva 20mg ED for 30 days and start the pregnyl with the nolva, maybe add some aromasin if you notice the pregnyl is causing your gyno to flare up again...Aromasin @20mg daily for 30days with th nolva...

My nipples feel fine. Not sore at all. There are still small lumps behind them that feel like glands but they are not sensitive at all. Are those lumps normal? Never really fiddled with my nipples before this.

I'm glad it's the Letro that is fucking me and not just the fact that I'm coming off cycle

My PCT will be exactly this www.anabolicsteroids.co.za/images/downlo...le-therapy/PCT-2.pdf

Still a bit worried about these lumps?

When should I start the PCT?

Thanks guys

I really dont understand why people take letro instead of adex its not that much more expensive , when you consider what a proper cycle costs including everything that little bit extra to make it pleasurable seems worth the extra cash.Everyone seems to get kicked in the ass by letro.

ninjajuice wrote: Hey guys,

I have a few questions so please see if you can answer each of them.

1 - 2 weeks ago I posted about painful small lumps behind my nipples and I received different advice. I decided to go with what my supplier said to do as I really trust him and respect his knowledge. His advise was to take Letro. 5 drops a day until the pain went away and then to go down to 3 drops a day until I finish the cycle. Since being on Letro my cardio has CRASHED extremely badly. My joints are murdering me, especially the shoulders. Is this all due to the Letro?

2 - I had my last shot of test prop 11 days ago, my last tbol 4 days ago and my last proviron yesterday and I am hating life. have never felt so useless at training. Can I start my pct now or should I wait a bit longer? (PCT is HCG, Clomid and Nolva)

3 - Can I stop with the Letro or should I continue taking it throughout my PCT?

4 - Once off the Letro how long will it take for me to return to normal again, in ability and joints?

5 - I feel weaker than I was before I started my cycle, will my pct help balance this out?

Any advice and help will be greatly appreciated

1. yes

2. wait 14 days after prop, so another 3

3. you can come down to 2 or 1 drops until pct starts. don't use through.

4. your joints should start feeling better in a week

5. yes but it'll take a while. use support sups like trib, zma and daa. I found these helped

philip wrote: I really dont understand why people take letro instead of adex its not that much more expensive , when you consider what a proper cycle costs including everything that little bit extra to make it pleasurable seems worth the extra cash.Everyone seems to get kicked in the ass by letro.

I won'y make that mistake again. I just took what my supplier advised. I presumed he just wanted to offer me the cheaper option. I didn't even know that there was a price difference. The cost would not have been an issue. Oh well,, we live and learn hey.

Letro is a nasty bitch .

These small lumps, are they glands or normal, or should I still be worried even though they aren't sore?

Do not stop the Letro or you will have a severe rebound effect, you need Aromasin, you need to include that into your PCT protocol and make sure it rides out at least a week after the hCG. I will then have Nolva run another week beyond the Aromasin too.

00pump wrote: Do not stop the Letro or you will have a severe rebound effect, you need Aromasin, you need to include that into your PCT protocol and make sure it rides out at least a week after the hCG. I will then have Nolva run another week beyond the Aromasin too.

pump, how would one taper the letro to minimize the rebound?

00pump wrote: Do not stop the Letro or you will have a severe rebound effect, you need Aromasin, you need to include that into your PCT protocol and make sure it rides out at least a week after the hCG. I will then have Nolva run another week beyond the Aromasin too.

ok Pump, so if I understand you correctly (I'm a bit of an idiot so please bare with me here)

I will start pct in 4 days, but continue to take the letro throughout PCT? How many drops per day? I am at 3 drops at the moment.

So PCT to look like this :

Letro : day 1 to day 40 (dosage here please???)
Aromasin : day 1 to day 33 (dosage here please???)
Clomid : day 1 to day 7 (100mg a day)
HCG : day 8 to day 26 (500iu eod)
Nolvadex : day 8 to day 40 (20mg a day)


Is this correct. Can I switch the letro and get adex? Letro is murdering me and I do CrossFit so I need my joints to function. My shoulders are unbearable, my elbow is starting to hurt like hell and my knees feel like they are about to follow. Or should I just suck it up and persist with the letro until this is over. Whatever is best I will do.

Let me know please pump

Bump for Pump to see :whistle:

I think he means that you should run the letro up until day before pct and then do the doctari full pct where aromasin is added. Add another 1 week of nolva end pct, in other words 37 days on nolva and not 30 days

ABC01 wrote: I think he means that you should run the letro up until day before pct and then do the doctari full pct where aromasin is added. Add another 1 week of nolva end pct, in other words 37 days on nolva and not 30 days

Cool, but my PCT starts tomorrow and I don't want the rebound he mentioned so just wanted to clear that up

how were you gains after the cycle by the way?

rvp01 wrote: how were you gains after the cycle by the way?

very good, just what I wanted. I bulked slightly but more importantly put on some quality lean muscle. I have no interest in getting huge

ABC01 wrote: I think he means that you should run the letro up until day before pct and then do the doctari full pct where aromasin is added. Add another 1 week of nolva end pct, in other words 37 days on nolva and not 30 days

Just like ABC advised, this way you maximizing recovering, preventing rebound, and you also running a SERM on it's own without the interference of hCG which I find personally prevents complete recovery.

00pump wrote:

ABC01 wrote: I think he means that you should run the letro up until day before pct and then do the doctari full pct where aromasin is added. Add another 1 week of nolva end pct, in other words 37 days on nolva and not 30 days

Just like ABC advised, this way you maximizing recovering, preventing rebound, and you also running a SERM on it's own without the interference of hCG which I find personally prevents complete recovery.

Thanks guys.

So should I just toss the HCG that I bought and get the Aromasin and Ovidrel? I'm fine with that if that is what I need to do. Started my clomid this morning (split 50mg in morning and evening, I hope that is correct)

Man I have paid a lot of school fees during this cycle :pinch: :lol:

That or use the hCG

ninjajuice wrote: So should I just toss the HCG that I bought and get the Aromasin and Ovidrel? I'm fine with that if that is what I need to do.

Ovidrel will do EXACTLY the same thing that HCG will do, dosing is just different. No matter what you read anywhere on this or other forum. I have a copy of Ovidrel's original 82 page application to the Office of Clinical Pharmacology and Biopharmaceutics that compares HCG and rHCG(Ovidrel) in a few studies, as well as a crapload of other biomedical data that I checked up on.

Ovidrel only costs more because it is expensive to biosynthesize rHCG by inserting DNA into modified hamster ovary cells <- :lol: seriously, that's what they do.

Ovidrel has proven to have a better effect on FSH levels than that of hCG alone.

Hey guys,
Sorry a bit off topic but what other vitamins would u suggest to take while on pct?

Vit E
Vit C
Multivitam
Vit B shots

00pump wrote: Ovidrel has proven to have a better effect on FSH levels than that of hCG alone.

Where was this proven? I have spent HOURS looking for this proof only to find legit information that is quite different.

Doctari a few years ago said, "Remember I mentioned that LH, FSH and TSH has the same alpha sub-unit? So, by using Ovidrel, you will have a "TRIPPLE" effect. Firstly, your LH effect will increase testosterone production, secondly the FSH effect will have testicular tissue enhancement and Sertoli cell stimulation leading to higher sperm production, and thirdly the TSH effect producing more T4 to convert to T3. Pregnyl consists basically of the Beta sub-unit."

The other reference on this forum is:

"- Ovidrel
This is the alpha-sub-unit of the HCG molecule. Most of you would be familiar with the beta-sub-unit, called Pregnyl (B-HCG).
This acts as a LH-analogue, stimulating the LH production, leading to testis stimulation of own-testosterone production.
Where Ovidrel is much more superior to Pregnyl, is that the alpha unit stimulates the FSH, LH and TSH production simultaneously - so, it repairs your testosterone function, sperm production and thyroid function in one go, whereas Pregnyl does only the testosterone function."

I found this very interesting and looked this up on a few biomedical sites, and checked out data from the company that makes Ovidrel, as well as official information on pregnyl/hcg from various health libraries etc. This info is available on many sites including the FDA's site and US National Health Library. They all say that:

HCG and Ovidrel BOTH have an identical alpha sub unit to LH, FSH and TSH. The beta subunits are different. Even Organon who makes Pregnyl says on their description that Pregnyl has the same alpha sub-unit as LH, FSH and TSH, not the beta sub-unit which keeps getting referred to on this forum. I have spent hours researching this, crazy maybe but I like knowing exactly what the stuff I'm taking does. Pregnyl's beta sub unit has no function has an LH analog.

Ovidrel and HCG both are analogs for LH, FSH and TSH.

This info really is not very complicated and doesn't require a medical doctor to understand it. I am not trying to open a can of worms here or disagree with anybody. I'm just interested in the facts and I couldn't care less about being proven right or wrong when it comes to health. I do realise that by posting this it could ruffle a few feathers but that is not my intention.

If you would like links to the info I will gladly post it or upload the .pdf docs that I have somewhere.

All I can comment is that Hcg made me feel like crap, depressed, low libido and pin hurt like an angry wasp, even though it did work at the end of the day in that my nads regained normal size. When I used ovidrel I felt a marked increase in libido, felt generally good, only minor mood swings, pin did not hurt at all.

The science of it might be that they are no different and I'm not about to argue the toss with anyone here, but Ovidrel is my choice now, hands down.

I hear you bud but after checking out your cycles you are blaming HCG for the fact that you felt depressed and had low libido during pct- after waiting around 50 days from your last EQ shot to start PCT while using only 20mg proviron to bridge. I'm not surprised you felt like crap.

Before PCT you had almost 0 test in your system from waiting 7/8 weeks for EQ to clear. Test is what makes you feel good. No test = feel crap, no libido. You did not have enough androgens in your body to prevent that emotional crash, and then you did 100mg clomid a day for a week. Clomid is more likely to cause depression than any other ancilliary, especially at 100mg a day after having no testosterone/androgens in your system. Just google- Clomid Depression- you'll see page after page of people fucked up from clomid. But in PCT it's a necessary evil. Clomid's 5-7 day half life also means it takes ages to clear.

After steroid cycles the aim is to time PCT to start when testosterone drops to around the same levels as they would be normally when off cycle (Like you did on the cycle you used Ovidrel for PCT). Unstable hormone levels and low test are what cause post cycle depression.

When you did Ovidrel you had an AI to control estrogen conversion from the Ovidrel which kept test levels higher, and you did a proper bridge, and timed your PCT to start at around 3x test half life. That is why you didn't get the same depression and loss of libido.

HCG and Ovidrel can both affect depression because of what they do to your hormones. But they have the same hormonal affect on your body so the chances of that are the same with either.