Steroid build up and pct start time.

Miguel, I followed your posts in the dark for some time now and your knowledge on the subject is very good and I believe you could be of great value to this forum. I checked many things you claimed and they were actually spot on.

There is just one thing I would like you to do for me and everyone else. That is to stop going on and on how the entire forum is wrong about everything and just give us the facts where you disagree. I admit that there are advice given here that's old school, but don't flame us for it and just provide your explanation in an understandable fashion. Remember this is NOT a medical website and never will be, we want instructions and not riddles.

You are a cleaver guy and obviously find research fascinating, however most don't understand what you are going on about.

One last thing I would like to ask you and that is to stop with the abbreviations, it's against our rules and I'm instructing moderators to delete posts like that.

Please continue to debate the topic, but the moment it's becoming personal or against my rules everyone involved will be banned on the spot...

Miguel wrote: you've gone about this completely wrong. as a result, anyone knowledgeable enough about pharmacokinetics & drug decay would be wise enough to completely disregard the contents of this thread....

Why?

What if I tell you a certain someone came to the waiting period (3x Half life) conclusion after many blood tests? I think you can't deny the results, but don't ask for them as they will not be published until the study in Bloem university is complete.

at first this tread made so much sense it was a real eyeopener, now miguel is up to his usual confusion parade ,i think this time he is so pissed off he might actually back up his claims ,meanwhile the rest of the forum are in doubt about everything important in pct...

so ill be glued to this topic and research the subject further myself

I doubt that is going to happen, anyway.. The above mentioned structure is what we recommend here, you have the ability to either believe the trials and results or you have the choice of believing 1 individual who claims something yet doesn't give a single piece of evidence to support his case.

its a touchy subject and in this point in time like you said he does not have a any proof so ill take into account whats in front of me and do some independent research as well

It's not touchy, one of the smartest members on this forum and a medical genius is and has been doing clinical trials for his PCT protocol, and he clearly states when the PCT needs to be carried out. Nothing further to the subject unless someone can provide medical proof stating otherwise.

I agree. Facts is facts. Great post btw

I met the guy doing the tests in bloem. Really nice guy. Wierd sometimes meeting the guys which posts/articles I have read over and over. I am thinking bout being a part of it later this year or maybe next year. Will really put a light on everything we do and exactly how it works.
Props to the doc.

Regards

Great post DJ, it all makes a lot of sense. You are a fantastic source of knowledge on this site. Have another long over due karma.

As far as Miguel is concerned, he is obviously intelligent and well read on the subject, and I respect that. However I find him so frustrating for the following reasons:

2. The aggressive attacks on posts he disagrees with.
4. His posts are so difficult to read.
6. He promises so much, but like those girls at high school, leads you on, but never quite delivers the climax. I just don't understand the point of throwing out all these studies and medical jargon without explaining how we can actually benefit from it. I mean what is the point?
8. Has he ever explained what "MSRP" is?
10. Laid out his own PTC protocol? What happened to the Letro and HCG only PTC he promised?

If he has laid this out on this site then I apologize, cos I must have missed it. If not, then it's time to either piss or get off the pot.

He is gone, don't worry about him anymore.

the amazing thing is there is so much sense in what has been said and it has been vastly overlooked by a lot of people for so long...we hear 1 thing from a guy like anthony roberts or william llewellyn who might know about the chemicals being used and the world follows that...its like explaining how a car engine works but not knowing about the breaking system.... so to have had a doctor and other knowledgeable people discuss this,bring this point to the light of normal joe average is amazing!! i never ever considered waiting for esters to clear etc because of excess build up,and now makes sense as to why so many peoples pct's dont work and have issues months down the line! and for miguel to come here and not even be able to back up why these people are wrong and the thinking behind it is amazing... he has lead people down a path that only he knows where it will end and go...

until he can show us evidence and prove to us why this theory is wrong then he is no more than the village idiot....

DJ great post your like a book of knowledge....

Hai there mate, i am about to start a cycle of test cypionate and dbol. running at 500mg a week and dbol at 40 mg a day. if got nolvadex as my pct, should i use it during my cycle, if not, when should i start??? coz for dbol its 24 hours after last administration, and for test cyp it is 18 days...

no its not 18 days after your last administation for pct,is 3x the half life which is 12 days, so 36days after your last shot u start pct.so no u dont start your kessar whilst on cycle,u wait 36days after your last shot.

DJ wrote: hey guys,

i have been thinking about this alot recently after conan and i had a discussion and bascially its got to do with how a substances builds up in the body over a period of time and when you can basically start your pct... Admin has brought to our attention that steroid users should wait 3x the half life of the longest ester steroid before starting pct,this is a good rule of thumb to use but alot of the time there is still a big enough build up in the body after that amount of time that starting your pct then can still be ineffective. basically for my example i am going to use the example of injection 100mg of winstrol and you can see how it works its way out of the system in terms of the half life. so here goes.

Joe Average is going to be injection Winstrol Suspension at 100mg per shot.now winstrol has a 24 hour half life,so every 24 hours the amount in the body will drop by half! this is what will happen on the first 10 days :
day 1 :100mg injected,100mg in the body
day 2 :24 hours later 50mg in the body
day 3 :24 hours later 25mg in the body
day 4 :24 hours later 12.5mg in the body
day 5 :24 hours later 6.25mg in the body
day 6 :24 hours later 3.125mg in the body
day 7 :24 hours later 1.5625mg in the body
day 8 :24 hours later 0.78mg in the body
day 9 :24 hours later 0.39mg in the body
day 10:24 hours later 0.19mg in the body

ok so thats over a 10 day period you can see that after day 3 that the steroid level is low enough for you to start your pct. BUT the problem lies is thats only 1 injection, now if you start injecting every 2nd day, you may be only injecting another 100mg BUT there is still the build up of 25mg from the first injection that you have to take into consideration!

so if we look at the 2nd injection based on the finding we see this


day 1 :100mg injected,100mg in the body
day 2 :24 hours later 50mg in the body
day 3 :24 hours later 25mg in the body + 100mg injected
day 4 :24 hours later 12.5mg in the body + 24 hours later 50mg in the body
day 5 :24 hours later 6.25mg in the body + 24 hours later 25mg in the body
day 6 :24 hours later 3.125mg in the body + 24 hours later 12.5mg in the body
day 7 :24 hours later 1.5625mg in the body + 24 hours later 6.25mg in the body
day 8 :24 hours later 0.78mg in the body + 24 hours later 3.125mg in the body
day 9 :24 hours later 0.39mg in the body + 24 hours later 1.5625mg in the body
day 10:24 hours later 0.19mg in the body + 24 hours later 0.78mg in the body

so now we can see that on the 3rd day there is actually 125mg in the body as there is the residue build up from the previous injection! now by the time we have done out 5th injection there is actually a build up in the system from all the residue of 133.20mg.

now if we look at the first injection after 3days the blood levels have dropped from 100mg to 50,then to 25 then to 12.5mg and then this is a decent time for you to start your pct as the blood concentration is low enough where the drug might not be effective and active enough for it to mess up your pct. BUT now we have done 5 injections and now have the excess build up of 133.20mg to worry about. so 24 hours later u have 66.6mg then down to 33.3mg,down to 16.65mg so it might actually take a day later for you in order to start your pct. now this doesnt look like much when you are dealing with a substance such as winstrol,but lets move to something that has a 10day half life and some one is injecting a 1000mg every 10 days as in the case of some people using test en

day 1 :1000mg injected,1000mg in the body
day 10 :10days later 500mg in the body
day 20 :10 hours later 250mg in the body
day 30 :10days later 125.0mg in the body
day 40 :10days later 62.5mg in the body
day 50 :10days later 31.25mg in the body
day 60 :10days later 1.5625mg in the body
day 70 :10days later 7.8mg in the body
day 80 :10days later 3.9mg in the body
day 90 :10days later 1.9mg in the body

this is quite a realistic scenario... the same thing happens when you do twice weekly injections such at 500mg test en every 5th day for example...so if you look at it by the 5th 10day injection(or 10th 5th day injection) you will after that period of time have a risidule build up of another 333g of testosterone...which you will have to wait to metabolise and work out your system.

so now after injecting 1000mg of test enanthate every 10 days, at day 90 you stop the cycle you have to deal with 1333mg of testosterone

now if you were using 1000mg and u used the 3x the half life then you essentailly on day 30 have got 250mg to deal with,some people will wait till day 50 to start pct where blood levels will be close to 62.5mg now what happens when you are dealing with the build up in the system of the additional 333mg??? so lets look 1333mg 10days later = 666.5 10 days later = 333.25mg,10days later 166mg,10days later 83mg which is still higher than the 62.5mg than originally though would be in the system!!

look this might be all out there and stuff but you gotta realise is there is a build up in the system and that build up needs to be taking into consideration... now all these working have been done with the dose staying the same and injection protocol staying the same,this would be a whole lot different if joe average after week 5 decided to up the dosages of the substance being used...

now when constructing a cycle you should take this period of time into consideration... you have to wait 50days after your last test enanthate injection to start pct then you still have 50days in order to play with short esters!!

so if you need to start pct in week 15,make sure that you have finished your acetate/proprionate esters in week 13(3x the longest half life being proprionate 4.5days x 3 = 14days/2 weeks)and your short orals 1-2 days before (3x longest half life of anavar or winstrol is 9hours,so 27hours is 1 day,2 to be safe)

so lets look at it this as an example

week 1-10
1000mg test enanthate per week
week 8,9,10,11,12,13
test prop + masteron prop/tren acetate
week 9,10,11,12,13,14
winstrol orals + anavar orals + proviron

week 15 starts :

now by week 15 all the esters would've cleared for you start a happy decent pct which will let u recover from your steroid cycle... not the usual 2 weeks after your last injection of long esters we have been doing for so long!!

Since you should wait 50 days after the last test e injection, should PCT not suppose to start until week 17? 50 days = 7 weeks? And in that 7 weeks what sort of cost-effective bridge can one run as surely you cant run winny for 7 weeks after having already frontloaded (with lets say D-Bol) earlier in the cycle?

I definitely like this new protocol as it makes scientific sense, only problem is what about the thousands if not millions of people who were using the old method? Should they not, then, still have a supressed system since they essentially started their PCT way too early and should therefore have been pointless?


EDIT: 500th post OH YEAH!!

Deadgoat that goes strictly down to age again.. You need less recovery when you younger, however I have seen year in and year out the older guys stating they have not properly recovered and what you posted above is the clear reason for this..

3x the half life of the longest ester u are using that is the wait u have to wait.so test Enanthate is 10.5days so u need to wait 31.5days

DJ wrote: 3x the half life of the longest ester u are using that is the wait u have to wait.so test Enanthate is 10.5days so u need to wait 31.5days

Oh thought it was 21 days? I assume thats the same for cyp?

Cyp has a 12day half life if I am not mistaken so 36days

Thanks for clearing that up

What is the half life of PGW Supertest???

It's on the list..

Super Test 320 / Sustanon Testosterone Blend 18 days(half life) 54 days (wait period)

Pump supertest lacks the undeconate ester so its acutually 12days also depending on dosage of super test will determine waiting period if u are using 2mls of super test a week u should get away with 2x the half life as it is only 200mg of cyp/enanthate so 24days later it will be bellow 100mg which is more than acceptable to start pct :)throwing that 1 out there lol

DJ, but who is to say the dose is only 1ml, 99% of people would inject 2ml..

Id still say the minimal ammount of time based on the longest ester would then be 36 days.