Test effects on me, help please

00pump wrote:

admin wrote:

00pump wrote: This is very interesting.. Below are two links around hormones and ferritin. Do you find that its only while you on a cycle that your iron is effected, or is it high off cycle? I have had high iron for as long as I can remember, however I was a teen I had to supplement iron due to it being very low. I've actually had to have a letter from my Endo to ask for me to bleed, I have not been allowed to donate due to it being so high. I think my ferritin levels where over 700 last year or the year before, I can't remember, but when I went to donate last weekend I thought I'd have to bleed and not be allowed donating and my iron came back perfect but I'm off test now. So I'm wondering if the same doesn't happen to me, when on gear it goes up. I'll try find the other article I read awhile ago where it said that testosterone should regulate it but this doesn't seem to be the case outside of these trials?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4672881/

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3795691/

..

Found the one article talking about lowering:

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4154071/

My iron levels are always on the high side, but on cycle it goes up even more. I had an iron deficiency when very young, but after some supplementation never had low levels again. My mother’s side of the family tend to have high iron levels.

SANBS didn’t allow me to donate awhile back, because the portable machine measured 18.5 but they sent a blood sample for lab testing and it came back as 17.5 so they allowed me to donate without a doctors letter. The portable machine measured 17.5 again last week. I’m not on cycle now so will see what the reading is when I donate again in 8 weeks.

I tend to eat allot of iron rich food, but when my levels were at their highest I couldn’t go near iron rich food without feeling repulsed... now I’m back to craving red meat... interesting how one’s body responds when there’s an excess of minerals.

Very interesting. And even more interesting regarding the craving. The misses is not a red meat eater, but she suffers extremely low iron where supplementation does not work and has to do an infusion every 3 months. And only now that you have mentioned it does it click, she stops eating most meat after the infusion and now where we nearly on the 3 month mark she is eating meat daily. The human body is fascinating.

The one consistent pattern with improving low iron seems to be ostrich... I am pretty amazed at the results I have seen in people that were suffering... maybe give it a shot if she ever needs it again.

The consensus that it's solvent sensitivity sounds reasonable to me. The effects are starting and stopping in seamingly less time than test E/C half life.

As a matter of interest what are you doing about AI?

Hey John

I am actually doing TRT type doses at the moment. Just got my first bottle of PGW Cyp and will be running 50mg EOD. Would I need an AI at these doses?

That's around 175mg a week, most people I know can even get away without using an AI at 500mg a week. Personally, I am not a fan of using AIs unless on cycle. A lot of research showing the positives of estrogen in men (cardioprotective, neuroprotective, etc). Best way to know if you need one is blood work. Symptoms of high estrogen are vague and could be pinned on anything.

Personally, I wouldn't use an AI. Only blood work will tell.

prohunt wrote: Hey John

I am actually doing TRT type doses at the moment. Just got my first bottle of PGW Cyp and will be running 50mg EOD. Would I need an AI at these doses?

50mg eod would give you an average of 175mg per week (7 injections in a 2 week period =350mg/2), which may be a little bit high for TRT. I would start LOWER and if not enough then go higher. start at 60mg 2x a week SubQ.

Micro-dosing has shown to have less estrogenic effects, but however you would be pinning a hell of a lot, and I mean doing SubQ injections has been a great help for this.


With such a long half-life of the esters you are using, you can get away with injections being split 2x a week and roughly 84 hours apart, so Monday morning, Thursday night is a perfect one.


I have been seeing some guys around a few places do a couple of different things for TRT, and one being 100mg test cyp, and 50mg NPP, and 50MG Masteron E every 5 days. Now personally I do not feel you need to go that high with test ON TRT, and we are talking TRUE TRT NOT BODYBUILDERS TRT. you could look at doing a TOTAL MG DOSE FOR THE WEEK OF 140mg. So, 55mg testosterone and 15mg Masteron E 2x a week. This SHOULD take control of estrogen conversion, and lowering of SHBG, but if you have Hair issues, that's a no go.

if you are worried about estrogenic side effects, theoretically you could use equi over test for TRT as there is less affinity for estrogenic conversion, But would need to do double the dosing, eg 100mg a week test would be roughly 200mg a week equi.

true TRT is trying to mimic natural hormone levels, so probably between 10 and 20mg of testosterone daily,

bodybuilding TRT is just taking 200-300mg of testosterone a week to maintain muscle mass but isnt the safest route as that is actually a small cycle.

Good response.

Anecdotally I've seen non bodybuilder try as low as 60mg per week.

One thing I'd like to address is that EQ only cycles may cause low E2. This is the cause of "E2 anxiety" as far as I know.

Maybe, it really depends on your physiology. I'd be inclined to agree with lesdoctor on bloods being wise.

john.elton wrote: Good response.

Anecdotally I've seen non bodybuilder try as low as 60mg per week.

One thing I'd like to address is that EQ only cycles may cause low E2. This is the cause of "E2 anxiety" as far as I know.

i agree as there is a rate of roughly 50% rate of conversion to estrogen, so that is why you would need to run double the dosing of EQ vs Testosterone.

all hypotheticals here, there will never really be human trials and studies on this to confirm using Equi as TRT.

LesDoctor wrote: That's around 175mg a week, most people I know can even get away without using an AI at 500mg a week. Personally, I am not a fan of using AIs unless on cycle. A lot of research showing the positives of estrogen in men (cardioprotective, neuroprotective, etc). Best way to know if you need one is blood work. Symptoms of high estrogen are vague and could be pinned on anything.

Personally, I wouldn't use an AI. Only blood work will tell.

there are quite a few guys in the states that are using no AI in trt i see. Obviously these are from youtube podcasts where they tell guys to ride it out a couple of weeks and use no AI, and i tend to agree with that idea, I don't see the point of using an AI when trying to achieve normal testosterone levels, every time I use an AI my joints don't love me AT ALL.

Empire wrote:

LesDoctor wrote: That's around 175mg a week, most people I know can even get away without using an AI at 500mg a week. Personally, I am not a fan of using AIs unless on cycle. A lot of research showing the positives of estrogen in men (cardioprotective, neuroprotective, etc). Best way to know if you need one is blood work. Symptoms of high estrogen are vague and could be pinned on anything.

Personally, I wouldn't use an AI. Only blood work will tell.

there are quite a few guys in the states that are using no AI in trt i see. Obviously these are from youtube podcasts where they tell guys to ride it out a couple of weeks and use no AI, and i tend to agree with that idea, I don't see the point of using an AI when trying to achieve normal testosterone levels, every time I use an AI my joints don't love me AT ALL.

I had a similar experience. I just used an AI because at first because that is what I heard you should do on TRT but I just felt awful (lethargic, sore joints, low libido). I stopped using it and I felt amazing.

Empire wrote:

john.elton wrote: Good response.

Anecdotally I've seen non bodybuilder try as low as 60mg per week.

One thing I'd like to address is that EQ only cycles may cause low E2. This is the cause of "E2 anxiety" as far as I know.

i agree as there is a rate of roughly 50% rate of conversion to estrogen, so that is why you would need to run double the dosing of EQ vs Testosterone.

all hypotheticals here, there will never really be human trials and studies on this to confirm using Equi as TRT.

I read the same in Llewellyn's anabolics book. But his reference actually doesn't refer to boldenone at all, so I think there must be some mistake there.

It would be interesting to have more studies done but I believe one of the metabolites has an AI effect in those who are sensitive to it. I've seen people on 700/700 T/EQ with no AI, but they may just be low aromatisers.

Empire wrote:

john.elton wrote: Good response.

Anecdotally I've seen non bodybuilder try as low as 60mg per week.

One thing I'd like to address is that EQ only cycles may cause low E2. This is the cause of "E2 anxiety" as far as I know.

i agree as there is a rate of roughly 50% rate of conversion to estrogen, so that is why you would need to run double the dosing of EQ vs Testosterone.

all hypotheticals here, there will never really be human trials and studies on this to confirm using Equi as TRT.

I am not sure Equi for TRT would ever have a trial because ethics won't approve of it since data shows it's negative effects on the Kidneys. But who knows. There have been studies on 100mg Anadrol a day, lol.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29148625/
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21878449/

LesDoctor wrote:

Empire wrote:

john.elton wrote: Good response.

Anecdotally I've seen non bodybuilder try as low as 60mg per week.

One thing I'd like to address is that EQ only cycles may cause low E2. This is the cause of "E2 anxiety" as far as I know.

i agree as there is a rate of roughly 50% rate of conversion to estrogen, so that is why you would need to run double the dosing of EQ vs Testosterone.

all hypotheticals here, there will never really be human trials and studies on this to confirm using Equi as TRT.

I am not sure Equi for TRT would ever have a trial because ethics won't approve of it since data shows it's negative effects on the Kidneys. But who knows. There have been studies on 100mg Anadrol a day, lol.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29148625/
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21878449/

well of course, i mean 100mg of anadrol a day is perfect for TRT, why didn't i think of that :woohoo: :whistle: :pinch:

john.elton wrote:

Empire wrote:

john.elton wrote: Good response.

Anecdotally I've seen non bodybuilder try as low as 60mg per week.

One thing I'd like to address is that EQ only cycles may cause low E2. This is the cause of "E2 anxiety" as far as I know.

i agree as there is a rate of roughly 50% rate of conversion to estrogen, so that is why you would need to run double the dosing of EQ vs Testosterone.

all hypotheticals here, there will never really be human trials and studies on this to confirm using Equi as TRT.

I read the same in Llewellyn's anabolics book. But his reference actually doesn't refer to boldenone at all, so I think there must be some mistake there.

It would be interesting to have more studies done but I believe one of the metabolites has an AI effect in those who are sensitive to it. I've seen people on 700/700 T/EQ with no AI, but they may just be low aromatisers.

Well to be honest, i have heard about certain ifbb pros winning shows and turning pro on 500mg of test cyp and 250mg deca a week, no AI or hardening agents. So most likely in the genetic elite to be low Aromatizers.

Empire wrote: .


Well to be honest, i have heard about certain ifbb pros winning shows and turning pro on 500mg of test cyp and 250mg deca a week, no AI or hardening agents. So most likely in the genetic elite to be low Aromatizers.

That or they are capable of running estrogen higher without adverse effects which is anabolic in its own right.

LesDoctor wrote:

Empire wrote:

john.elton wrote: Good response.

Anecdotally I've seen non bodybuilder try as low as 60mg per week.

One thing I'd like to address is that EQ only cycles may cause low E2. This is the cause of "E2 anxiety" as far as I know.

i agree as there is a rate of roughly 50% rate of conversion to estrogen, so that is why you would need to run double the dosing of EQ vs Testosterone.

all hypotheticals here, there will never really be human trials and studies on this to confirm using Equi as TRT.

I am not sure Equi for TRT would ever have a trial because ethics won't approve of it since data shows it's negative effects on the Kidneys. But who knows. There have been studies on 100mg Anadrol a day, lol.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29148625/
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21878449/

I have been wracking my brain to see the reason for the kidney disease in rats using Equi, and I have to come to the conclusion that it would have to have been because of the increased RBC and hemoglobin and hematocrit being filtered through those little buggers. I may be off as I didn't really read the study but thinking in a little body and a massive INCREASE in RBC that surely would put strain there. Thoughts LesDoctor?

Empire wrote: I have been wracking my brain to see the reason for the kidney disease in rats using Equi, and I have to come to the conclusion that it would have to have been because of the increased RBC and hemoglobin and hematocrit being filtered through those little buggers. I may be off as I didn't really read the study but thinking in a little body and a massive INCREASE in RBC that surely would put strain there. Thoughts LesDoctor?

The increase in RBC would increase blood pressure which could put a lot of damaging strain on the arteries and tiny blood vessels in the kidneys?

High BP damages our eyes and kidneys slowly over time because of vascular damage, but with rats highly elevated metabolic rate it wouldn't take long to cause damage I would think.

Empire wrote:

LesDoctor wrote:

Empire wrote:

john.elton wrote: Good response.

Anecdotally I've seen non bodybuilder try as low as 60mg per week.

One thing I'd like to address is that EQ only cycles may cause low E2. This is the cause of "E2 anxiety" as far as I know.

i agree as there is a rate of roughly 50% rate of conversion to estrogen, so that is why you would need to run double the dosing of EQ vs Testosterone.

all hypotheticals here, there will never really be human trials and studies on this to confirm using Equi as TRT.

I am not sure Equi for TRT would ever have a trial because ethics won't approve of it since data shows it's negative effects on the Kidneys. But who knows. There have been studies on 100mg Anadrol a day, lol.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29148625/
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21878449/

I have been wracking my brain to see the reason for the kidney disease in rats using Equi, and I have to come to the conclusion that it would have to have been because of the increased RBC and hemoglobin and hematocrit being filtered through those little buggers. I may be off as I didn't really read the study but thinking in a little body and a massive INCREASE in RBC that surely would put strain there. Thoughts LesDoctor?

I'm wouldn't be too sure about your theory although could be possible, hwoever in the rabbit study the doses where similar to bodybuilding doses used on a per KG study for each rabbit. The study found that cortical thinning occured (the cortex of the kidneys is where blood is filtered), which also occurs in hypertensive diseases. The only difference is in the other study where blood pressure was not elevated for anyone and yet thinning still occurred. The other study I referenced was done on human so perhaps a little more reliable.

I'm not sure where I heard it, but I just thought it was known fact in the community that EQ was nephrotoxic but perhaps I was wrong.

Correct, that is my anecdotal thoughts anyway, could be feasible, could be horse shit, but let us wait for LesDoctors response (said in my best French accent)

LesDoctor wrote:

Empire wrote:

LesDoctor wrote:

Empire wrote:

john.elton wrote: Good response.

Anecdotally I've seen non bodybuilder try as low as 60mg per week.

One thing I'd like to address is that EQ only cycles may cause low E2. This is the cause of "E2 anxiety" as far as I know.

i agree as there is a rate of roughly 50% rate of conversion to estrogen, so that is why you would need to run double the dosing of EQ vs Testosterone.

all hypotheticals here, there will never really be human trials and studies on this to confirm using Equi as TRT.

I am not sure Equi for TRT would ever have a trial because ethics won't approve of it since data shows it's negative effects on the Kidneys. But who knows. There have been studies on 100mg Anadrol a day, lol.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29148625/
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21878449/

I have been wracking my brain to see the reason for the kidney disease in rats using Equi, and I have to come to the conclusion that it would have to have been because of the increased RBC and hemoglobin and hematocrit being filtered through those little buggers. I may be off as I didn't really read the study but thinking in a little body and a massive INCREASE in RBC that surely would put strain there. Thoughts LesDoctor?

I'm wouldn't be too sure about your theory although could be possible, hwoever in the rabbit study the doses where similar to bodybuilding doses used on a per KG study for each rabbit. The study found that cortical thinning occured (the cortex of the kidneys is where blood is filtered), which also occurs in hypertensive diseases. The only difference is in the other study where blood pressure was not elevated for anyone and yet thinning still occurred. The other study I referenced was done on human so perhaps a little more reliable.

I'm not sure where I heard it, but I just thought it was known fact in the community that EQ was nephrotoxic but perhaps I was wrong.

Well there we have it.

the best forum on the net, breaking down effects of steroids on animals for us to use in moderation for stupid application.... who says we don't have first world problems here in South Africa :woohoo:

LesDoctor wrote:

Empire wrote:

LesDoctor wrote:

Empire wrote:

john.elton wrote: Good response.

Anecdotally I've seen non bodybuilder try as low as 60mg per week.

One thing I'd like to address is that EQ only cycles may cause low E2. This is the cause of "E2 anxiety" as far as I know.

i agree as there is a rate of roughly 50% rate of conversion to estrogen, so that is why you would need to run double the dosing of EQ vs Testosterone.

all hypotheticals here, there will never really be human trials and studies on this to confirm using Equi as TRT.

I am not sure Equi for TRT would ever have a trial because ethics won't approve of it since data shows it's negative effects on the Kidneys. But who knows. There have been studies on 100mg Anadrol a day, lol.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29148625/
pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21878449/

I have been wracking my brain to see the reason for the kidney disease in rats using Equi, and I have to come to the conclusion that it would have to have been because of the increased RBC and hemoglobin and hematocrit being filtered through those little buggers. I may be off as I didn't really read the study but thinking in a little body and a massive INCREASE in RBC that surely would put strain there. Thoughts LesDoctor?

I'm wouldn't be too sure about your theory although could be possible, hwoever in the rabbit study the doses where similar to bodybuilding doses used on a per KG study for each rabbit. The study found that cortical thinning occured (the cortex of the kidneys is where blood is filtered), which also occurs in hypertensive diseases. The only difference is in the other study where blood pressure was not elevated for anyone and yet thinning still occurred. The other study I referenced was done on human so perhaps a little more reliable.

I'm not sure where I heard it, but I just thought it was known fact in the community that EQ was nephrotoxic but perhaps I was wrong.

You are right, I have read of an increase from boldenone in ALT levels and then you have the increase in creatinine which over time will place fair strain on the kidneys.

Cardiac function marker CK showed significant increases too.

00pump wrote: Cardiac function marker CK showed significant increases too.

I never knew that, that's crazy. Wonder what the mechanism behind EQ is.