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Thunderbeast wrote: mine is from september 2007... will most probably be discredited because it is an anthony roberts article... but none the less, it makes some sense.
just google the parts below
Esters: Much more than just half-life…
TRUTH ABOUT ESTERS REVEALED FOR THE FIRST TIME!
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Anthony Roberts wrote: Testosterone
I thought testosterone is testosterone? Isn’t that what they say on the internet? If you hear it on a steroid forum, isn’t it true? Well, research dating as far back as 1954 says no. In fact, (primate) research as recent as this decade seems to say the same thing. Alright, I can hear the pubmed-scientists and keyboard-cowboys all over the internet shouting in protest right now. I know that primate studies aren’t perfect, but they’re offering us a clue as to why we all gain more weight on the longer esters versus the shorter esters. And in this case, they offer us a perfect- even elegant – explanation.
Why do we need an explanation for this? Well, because for literally decades we’ve been using short esters for cutting cycles and long esters for bulking cycles, and for all that time we’ve also been claiming that “testosterone is testosterone” regardless of ester. If we actually believed that last “fact”, we’d just be using the longest esters all the time, because they’re more cost effective per bottle.
But we don’t; and we see different effects on water retention, gyno, weight gain, and other parameters, depending on the ester lengths.
Here’s what scientists found out when they examined different ester lengths:
Testosterone ester length can (and does) influence suppression of the gonadal axis, effects on anabolic parameters, and lipid metabolism.
Furthermore, they reassure us that their results are most likely transferable to human males. Further-furthermore (I made that up), their research indicates that esters influence conversion to estrogen.
(2) And when you think about what experience tells us, doesn’t that agree with the real world? Don’t people get gyno more frequently, more water retention, and higher bodyweight gains with longer esters? When is the last time you saw someone using a short ester and still need an anti-estrogen? And more estrogen also means more hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis suppression, because of the body’s negative feedback loop. Haven’t we always known that long esters suppress you more than short ones? It’s not just the time they are in the body, but also the amount that they convert to estrogen. Do the math if you don’t believe me…it can’t just be the extra couple days that long esters are active in the body. It’s the estrogen conversion.
Thus - the amount you suppress your natural hormonal system, the potential anabolic effect, and the effects on lipids, are all influenced by the ester length. Esters are not just something that delays the release of the hormone into the body…their length plays a crucial role in what degree the steroid actually performs certain functions.
I know it goes against everything that is typically said about esters, but think about it…don’t we use different testosterone esters (in the real world) for different things….long esters for bulking and short esters for cutting? I’m presenting new information
Alright…let me tell you about a study now. Scientists (real ones, with lab coats and everything) examined 3 different testosterone preperations with different ester lengths. What they found was that the shortest ester provided the highest peak levels of testosterone, followed by the medium length ester, and the lowest peak level was found with the longest ester. Even a two- to threefold higher dose of the shortest acting ester studied did not fully achieve the effects of longer esters concerning gonadal and metabolic functions. (2) Did I mention that the amount of pure testosterone (minus the ester) was the same in all injections? So what does that tell us?
The ester influences far more than just the release time and active life of the parent hormone.
Estradiol levels were significantly higher with the longest ester. Yes…Using longer estered testosterone will cause a higher rise in estrogen. And, although the same total amount of testosterone was injected in all groups, the group using the longest acting version gained the most weight.
tesosterone
=================================================================
(Estrogen)
Also of interest in this study is that even though testosterone was used for 28 weeks in a row, the shortest ester allowed the most rapid return of natural hormonal levels. Sperm count also remained highest with the shortest ester, and lipid profiles were worse with the longer acting testosterone. And once again, even though this was only a primate study, the authors believe these results are transferable to human males…and bodybuilders who have used different esters for different goals will confirm this as well.
The identifiable pattern of exposure and degree of aromatization and estrogen, rather than overall exposure to testosterone, determined the differing effects of the different esters. Longer esters cause a higher rise in estrogen (even when the total dose of testosterone is identical). That’s why we all get more water retention on testosterone enanthate, while testosterone propionate doesn’t cause much if any. This is the explanation that we have been waiting for…because I know that even when people say “test is test” they don’t really believe it- or we’d be seeing short ester bulking cycles and long-ester cutting cycles.
Oh…and if this weren’t the case, then why is it that people almost always talk about using an anti-estrogen with long estered testosterone and not usually with the short estered variety?
Have I mentioned that testosterone’s effect on Growth Hormone and IGF-I (two very anabolic hormones) are also dependant on aromatization to estrogen? Again, this is why we gain more muscle with the long estered tests. (3, 4, 5). This means that you actually get far more anabolism from the longer estered testosterones, because the increased conversion to estrogen will provide a greater elevation in your GH and IGF-1 levels. And many other positive effects of testosterone are actually dependent on it’s conversion to estrogen as well. (6, 7,
But does this apply across the board, to esterfied (aromatizable/DHT-convertible) hormones other than testosterone?
It probably does…in fact I’m pretty much positive that it does. Let’s take a look at the 19-nortestosterone derived family of anabolics, specifically Nandrolone.
When comparing different preparations of Nandrolone, many of these similar properties were found when a long ester (decanoate) was compared with a short one (Phenylpropionate).Peak plasma levels are higher with the shorter esters, suppression is greater with longer esters, and so on. (9,10) Of course, with Nandrolone (compared with testosterone) the degree of suppression is pretty harsh regardless of the actual ester used…but still, you can see more lengthy suppression with the longer ester. And another study also shows a higher anabolic effect when longer nandrolone esters are compared with short ones (11,12). Basically, what I’m saying here is that we’re seeing the same thing with different Nandrolone esters as we saw with testosterone esters; more imnportantly, the scientific research confirms what we know to be true in our own cycles, and also gives support for my explanation as to why this is happening.
It’s the ester length! And it sure as hell isn’t just affecting the half-life! Well….it’s likely that the release of the parent hormone is subject to different aromatization levels based on it’s release time…but still, the end result is that the ester is greatly influencing the actual effects because of this.
Unfortunately, in this study, only one injection was used…but again, we know that people who’ve used Nandrolone Phenylpropionate get less bloating then when they’ve used Nandrolone Decanoate.
Let’s go back to the other two drugs I mentioned earlier, namely the long estered versions of Trenbolone and Masteron. It doesn’t matter what ester you use with them, because neither of them convert to estrogen at all. In fact, since one is already derived from DHT, and the other isn’t subject to 5a-reduction, neither “convert” to DHT at all.
Dihydrotestosterone
In order for a hormone to become the dihydro version, is must be 5alpha-reduced (or already exist as such).
Does ester length also influence 5a-Reduction? I suspect it may. But in this case, I would imagine that the long esters convert less readily to DHT (though I guess I could be wrong).
If I’m right, then it would seem to give us another explanation of why we gain less weight on short esters…DHT is a potent androgen, but a disappointing anabolic, due to deactivation by the 3-alpha Hydroxysteroid Dehydrogenase enzyme. Increased conversion to DHT in short esters inversely correlated with a decreased conversion to estrogen would provide us with a neat, bow-wrapped, conclusion to all of this. I tend to think that the fact that ester length doesn’t have any real effect on 1. non-aromatizing androgens which also 2. can’t be further 5a-reduced – gives us strong inductive evidence to believe that there is more DHT conversion with short esters. Unfortunately, the research doesn’t give me 100% reassurance on the DHT-thing (however, the estrogen thing regarding esters is set-in-stone- gospel now, as far as I’m concerned). There is, however, some strong evidence in medical journals to support my thoughts on this (13, 14, 15, 16).
I’m speculating that short esters convert to more (not-really-very-anabolic) DHT, and that would also give us a clue as to why stuff like testosterone propionate is better at getting us a nice hard physique than testosterone enanthate. It fits…I just can’t be 100% sure on it. But I hope you joined me in that logical leap…because it sure gives us a safe landing on the other side, doesn’t it? I think this modulation and difference depending on ester in DHT levels is much more modest than those we see with estrogen levels (depending on ester).
To sum everything up in a nice neat package:
• Longer esters are more anabolic than shorter ones
• Shorter esters cause less water retention
• Longer esters cause more gonadal suppression
• Shorter esters cause a higher peak plasma level
• Most of this is only applicable to steroids that are estrified, aromatizable, and able to convert to DHT
I think I’ve made a pretty reasonable case for esters influencing far more than just active-life or half-life…and I think we’re about to see a new paradigm in the use of esters for different reasons.
I rest my case.
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