the carb cycling codex by Christian Thibaudeau

hi all.
this article has always interested me and i have used this with some sucess before. have a look at the link below (its a bit of a read but may prove to be worth ur while)
www.t-nation.com/free_online_article/spo...e_carb_cycling_codex

what concerns me in the above links advise is that for a guy my height and weight, on my high carb days , i will need more than 400grams of carbs. now for someone like me who cant see their abs i.e. high/er bf%, then is this advisable even if its during a bulk. heres his recommendations
To continue on with our example, our 220 pound bodybuilder would consume:

1) When trying to gain mass:

High(er) carb days = 330g protein, 412g carbs, 121g fat

Moderate days = 330g protein, 330g carbs, 121g fat

Low(er) carb days = 33g protein, 247g carbs, 121g fat

2) When trying to lose fat:

High(er) carb days = 330g protein, 344g carbs, 33g fat

Moderate days = 330g protein, 275g carbs, 33g fat

Low(er) carb days = 330g protein, 206g carbs, 33g fat



he also recommends as DJ does to eat carbs for breakfast, pre and pwo only. i like this as it keeps insulin release for times when its most needed. another concern though is he suggests that 50% of ur carb intake should come pwo in the form of surge. given my circumstances using the above example i would need over 200grams of carbs in simple sugars. i think thats really extreme and a marketing strategy to move "surge" post workout drink. please offer your thoughts/opinions on this article as i like the strategy but am concerned about the quantities and timing.

i will post the article below for those who cant open the link

The Carb Cycling Codex
Gain muscle and lose fat optimally!
by Christian Thibaudeau


Life is funny sometimes. Over the course of my T-Nation career I went from a fat but strong guy to a lean and muscular one, despite having the worst "fat loss genetics" in the world. In the past, I made most of my transformations via a low-carb dietary approach, and as a result I became somewhat carb-phobic and truly believed that ingesting carbs would turn me into a fat slob.

What's humorous is that, as a strength coach, I have access to the top sports nutritionists in the world. I've read everything by everyone. Drs. Berardi and Lowery's work weren't able to convince me of reintroducing carbs to my diet. Even the work of bodybuilding coach Chris Aceto (who uses relatively high carbs even during the pre-contest period) didn't help. When it came to carbs, I lost all rational thought capacity!

But as of now, carbs are back in my own diet and the diets of my athletes and bodybuilders. What happened? A 135 pound girl made me change my outlook on building muscle and losing fat. She succeeded where all the best experts failed!

That girl is my girlfriend, Christiane, who happens to be an excellent natural bodybuilder and a trainer herself. She's always kept carbs in her diet; we even had several arguments over that. Since I was sure that carbs equalled fatness, I wouldn't listen to anything she said. That is, until I saw her get ripped, strong, and more muscular simultaneously, week by week.



That's when I realized that she must be doing something right! So together we developed a dieting template that would become the one I use with all my bodybuilders and the one I use myself. This approach allows the athlete to either gain maximum muscle mass without gaining too much fat (sometimes a slight fat loss is even possible) or to get into contest shape while maintaining (or even gaining) muscle mass. The strategy is actually not complicated and it's the most effective way to diet I've ever used... and I've used every diet imaginable! The approach is called carb cycling.



Another "product" of carb cycling is Sebastien "Da Freak" Cossette, a young bodybuilder I'm training for his first bodybuilding competition ("Before" pics on bottom; "after" pics on top).


The Logic Behind the System

There are two inevitable truths when it comes to building muscle or losing fat:

1) To increase body mass you need to consume more calories than you use.

2) To lose body fat you need to consume fewer calories than you use.

Obviously, the type of food you ingest will have an important impact on the end result. If the bulk of your calories come from junk food, chances are you'll end up gaining more fat than muscle. Similarly, if the quality of your food intake is low while dieting, chances are you'll end up losing more muscle tissue.

So, it's true that whatyou eat is just as important as how much you eat. However, total food intake still remains of paramount importance when trying to either gain muscle or lose fat.

Another thing to consider is the effect of nutrients on hormones and the effect of hormones on muscle gain and fat loss. For example, insulin is one of the most important anabolic hormones in the body. It directly influences the amount of amino acids and glucose transported into the muscle cells. This is the good stuff, and the more of it you have, the more you grow.

Basically, insulin is responsible for transporting the bricks to the construction site. Insulin also prevents the mobilization of the nutrients stored in the muscle either as intramuscular glycogen or muscle tissue. So in that regard, insulin favors muscle gain and diminishes muscle wasting. This is why insulin is widely used by professional bodybuilders.

However, since using exogenous insulin is out of the question for any natural individual remotely interested in avoiding diabetes and premature death, we must stimulate our body to produce its own insulin. Insulin is released from the pancreas in response to an increase in blood glucose level (which occurs when consuming carbs and certain amino acids). So if we want to increase endogenous insulin production, it becomes necessary to consume a mix of carbs and amino acids.

On the other hand, glucagon, which is insulin's antagonistic hormone, promotes the mobilization and utilization of stored nutrients, including glycogen and amino acids. When your diet is low in carbs, your glucagon levels skyrocket, putting you into mobilization/breakdown mode instead of building/anabolic mode.

We also have to mention that without ingesting carbs, it's harder to have intense strength training sessions. It's true that some amino acids can be "turned into" glucose via gluconeogenesis, and that ketone bodies can be used for fuel after proper adaptation has set in. But truth be told, a low/no carb diet makes you lose your capacity to train hard in the gym.

You also risk losing muscle mass because your body might very well decide to break up muscle tissue into amino acids to create new glucose! You could literally burn down the walls to heat the house!

Lastly, the conversion of T4/thyroxine (the relatively inactive thyroid hormone) to T3/triiodothyronine (the active thyroid hormone) is greatly impaired when insufficient carbs are consumed. A lower level of T3 leads to a drop in metabolism and this makes losing fat much harder.

For these reasons we can see that consuming carbohydrates is necessary if we want to develop a muscular body. However, insulin also has an ugly side: it can promote fat storage as well as reduce fat mobilization and usage.

A chronically elevated insulin level has a profound effect on the body's capacity to increase body fat. On a related subject, excess carbs can also be stored in fat cells. So always consuming large amounts of carbohydrates can lead to a physique reminiscent of the Michelin Man!


So What Can We Do?

To stimulate maximum muscle growth you need carbs, and a relatively high amount to boot. Without ample calories and carbohydrates, it'll be hard to gain heaps of muscle tissue, even with a high protein intake. However, eating too much too often can also make you fat. Head-splitting, isn't it?

The first method used by bodybuilders was to divide their training year into bulking and cutting phases: consuming tons of calories and carbohydrates during their bulking phase, then dropping their calories and carbs to sub-maintenance levels when entering a cutting phase. This worked...somewhat.

It did allow many people to gain a lot of size, but most of them lost quite a bit of their new muscle during the intense dieting period. Not to mention that those who were cursed with bad insulin sensitivity tended to gain a lot more fat than muscle during "bulking season." Also, gaining and then losing 20-30 pounds isn't exactly healthy. It puts a lot of stress on the body and can lead to some health problems.

Finally, from an aesthetic perspective, ballooning up by gaining 15-20 pounds of fat for the sake of gaining 10 pounds of muscle isn't the best thing to do. Ideally, we want to look good naked most of the time, not on a few selected months out of the year. "Sorry babe, not with the lights on this month. I'm bulking."

Then the cyclical ketogenic diets began to appear. These were based on a relatively long period of carb deprivation (normally five straight days) where less than 50 grams of carbohydrates were allowed, followed by one or two days of carbohydrate loading.

While very effective at stimulating fat loss, the long period without carbs isn't conducive to maximum muscle accumulation. In fact, by the second or third day you're pretty much in a severe catabolic state. Sure, there's an anabolic rebound during the loading days. But I'm not sure if this can be enough to compensate for the rest of the week. I do believe that it's enough to prevent muscle loss on a weekly basis, but not enough to promote maximum muscle gain.

To be fair, I've used this type of dieting several times in my life and did get great results as far as fat loss is concerned. I was even able to add a small amount of muscle, but I was never able to gain a lot of it on this type of diet.

Finally, a third approach championed by guys like Dr. John Berardi started to gain popularity. This dietary approach was based on not consuming many carbs and fats togetherand on consuming carbs mainly during periods of increased insulin sensitivity (in the morning and post-workout). So you basically had three meals with carbs and three meals without them every day.

This approach is darn near perfect for gaining mass with minimal fat accumulation. However, I found that it could still be improved to get the best body composition results.


The Solution

The solution that I'll (finally) explain to you is called carb cycling, but it could also be called calorie cycling. It sticks to the basic theory of ingesting carbs only in the morning and after workouts. The only difference is that the amount of calories and carbs consumed will vary each day. What will this accomplish?

• It'll allow you to include maximum fat burning days and maximum muscle accumulation days in each week.

• It'll prevent metabolic slowdown by providing frequent caloric spikes.

• It'll favor long term success because it's relatively easy to follow, especially compared to the more restrictive ketogenic diets.

Carb Cycling: The Basic Structure

Carb cycling is based on having three different carbohydrate intake levels during the week: high(er) carbs, moderate carbs, and low(er) carbs. Ideally these days are split according to your training schedule.

If you train 4 times per week:

• Select your two "priority workouts." These are the workouts where you're training the muscle groups you need to improve the most. On these days, you have a high(er) carbohydrate day.

• On the two other workout days, you consume a moderate amount of carbs.

• On the three "off days" you have a low(er) carb intake.

If you train 3 times per week:

• Select your two "priority workouts." On these days, you have a high(er) carbohydrate day.

• The other workout day has a moderate carbohydrate intake level.

• Among the four remaining days of the week, you have one more moderate carb day along with three low carb days.

If you train 5 times per week:

• Select your two "priority workouts" where you're training the muscle groups you want to improve the most. On these days, you have a higher(er) carbohydrate day.

• Select two "secondary workouts." On these days you have a moderate carb intake.

• On the remaining workout day and during your "off" days you consume a low(er) amount of carbohydrates.

Basically, one sentence could summarize the carb cycling philosophy: "Eat for what you did and have to do."


Calories and Carbohydrate Levels

When you've established your basic structure, you need to set the food intake appropriately. The first thing to do is calculate your daily energy expenditure: the amount of energy (in calories) you use each day. This baseline figure will be used to set caloric and nutrient intake during the various types of days.


First Step: Calculating Your Basal Metabolic Rate

Your basal metabolic rate (BMR) simply means the amount of energy used by your body during a 24-hour period if no activity is performed. In other words, if you're inactive for 24-hours straight, you'd still "burn" the amount of calories equivalent to your BMR.

Your BMR is a function of your size, sex, and age. It's also influenced by your metabolic status (hypo or hyperthyroid state for example). We can calculate BMR with the following formulas (by Harris-Benedict):

For Men

BMR = 66 + (13.7 x weight in kg) + (5 x height in cm) - (6.8 x age)

So for a 30 year old bodybuilder of 220lbs (100kg) at 5'11" (178cm) it comes up to:

BMR = 66 + (13.7 x 100kg) + (5 x 178cm) – (6.8 x 30)

BMR = 2122 calories per day

For Women

BMR = 655 + (9.6 x weight in kg) + (1.7 x height in cm) - (4.7 x age)

So for a 28 year old figure girl of 132lbs (60kg) at 5'6" (165cm) it comes up to:

BMR = 655 + (9.6 x 60kg) + (1.7 x 165cm) – (4.7 x 28)

BMR = 1380 calories per day


Second Step: Factoring in activity level

The amount of calories found using the Harris-Benedict formula is what your body burns every day, even if you do nothing all day. Obviously, the more active you are the more you'll burn fuel. So, energy expenditure will be increased when your activity level goes up.

To get an adequate estimation you need to multiply your BMR by an activity level factor:

Activity level factor
Activity level

1.0
Sedentary

1.2
Very light activity

1.4
Light activity

1.6
Moderate activity

1.8
High activity

2.0
Extreme activity


By sedentary we mean doing nothing all day (sleeping and watching TV).

By very light activity we mean doing nothing physical. Working a desk job or on a computer and not performing any type of physical activity during your day.

By light activity we mean having a non-physical job (desk, computer, etc.) but performing some sort of physical activity during the day (e.g. above average walking) but no hard training.

By moderate activity we mean having a non-physical job, performing some sort of physical activity during the day, and including a daily workout session in your routine. This is where most of you are at.

By high activity we mean either training plus a physical job or non-physical job and twice-a-day training sessions.

By extreme activity we mean a very physical job and daily hard training.

So if our 220 pound bodybuilder with a BMR of 2122 calories/day is moderately active, his daily energy expenditure is bumped up to 2122 x 1.6 = 3395 calories per day. This is the amount of food to consume to maintain present body weight.


Third Step: Adjusting caloric intake to your goal

To gain muscle you should ingest more calories than you use up each day. To lose body fat you must do the opposite. A 20% increase or decrease seems to be ideal for most individuals. This isn't a drastic increase/decrease, so it shouldn't lead to excessive muscle loss or unwanted fat gain.

Our sample bodybuilder has a daily caloric expenditure of 3395kcals/day. If he wants to gain muscle mass he should bump his caloric intake up to 4074kcals/day. And if he wanted to lose fat he should decrease it to around 2716kcals/day on average.

Note that depending on your body type and metabolism, you may need to adjust these figures. Ectomorphs will need to increase caloric intake more than 20% to gain muscle maximally (around 30% is best for them) and they should decrease it less when trying to lose fat (by 10% instead of 20%). Endomorphs should only increase by 10% when trying to gain size, but lowering it by 20% is adequate for them when trying to lose fat.

For example, if our 220 pound bodybuilder is an endomorph he should ingest 3734kcals/day when trying to gain mass (instead of 4074kcals/day).


Fourth Step: Setting nutrient intake for the "moderate days"

Protein intake should remain stable during all three types of day. At least one gram per pound of bodyweight is necessary, but I recommend 1.5g/pound of bodyweight for better results (so 330g/day for a 220 pound individual).

When trying to gain mass, the carbohydrate level on the "moderate" days should be the equivalent to the protein intake. So in the case of our 220 pound bodybuilder, that comes up to 330 grams.

So he's now consuming 2640kcals/day (1320 from proteins and 1320 from carbs). Let's say that he's an endomorph. If he wants to gain muscle mass, his caloric intake should be around 3734kcals/day. So he has 1094kcals to consume in the form of fat, preferably good fats. Since fat has 9kcals/g, this comes up to 121g of fat per day.

So to recap, our endomorph bodybuilder of 220 pounds wanting to gain size should consume the following on "moderate" days:

330g of protein

330g of carbs

121g of fat

If he desires to lose fat, carb intake on the average days should be set at 1.25g per pound of bodyweight. For our sample guy that comes up to 275g per day.

Protein intake is kept at 1.5g/pound of bodyweight (330g in our example) and the rest of the calories are made up with fat.

In the case of our endomorphic bodybuilder who should consume 2716kcals/day to get ripped, we come up with 2420kcals from proteins and carbs, so he has around 300kcals to consume in the form of fat, or 33g/day.

To recap, our endomorph bodybuilder of 220 pounds wanting to get ripped should consume the following on "moderate" days:

330g of protein

275g of carbs

33g of fat


Fifth Step: Setting nutrient intake for the other days

Protein and fat intake remains constant during the week. Only carbs fluctuate up and down. During high(er) carb days, bump carbohydrates to 125% of moderate days. During low(er) carb days, intake is lowered to 75% of the moderate days.

To continue on with our example, our 220 pound bodybuilder would consume:

1) When trying to gain mass:

High(er) carb days = 330g protein, 412g carbs, 121g fat

Moderate days = 330g protein, 330g carbs, 121g fat

Low(er) carb days = 33g protein, 247g carbs, 121g fat

2) When trying to lose fat:

High(er) carb days = 330g protein, 344g carbs, 33g fat

Moderate days = 330g protein, 275g carbs, 33g fat

Low(er) carb days = 330g protein, 206g carbs, 33g fat


Sixth Step: Adjusting intake as the diet goes along

Warning: In my honest opinion, no one who's trying to get muscular should follow a restrictive fat loss diet for more than 16 weeks in a row. And most people would be better off using 8-12 weeks of dieting.

More than that and you're bound to lose muscle mass or at least limit your capacity to gain muscle mass. If you haven't gotten to the degree of leanness you wanted after 12 weeks of dieting, take 4 weeks "off" of your diet (continue to eat a good clean diet, but increase your calories) and then go for another dieting period.

When trying to lose fat, you'll need to eventually lower your calories as your body gets used to your level of food intake. With carb cycling this is less of a problem since carbohydrates and calories fluctuate. But still, every 3-4 weeks you'll need to decrease carbohydrates and calories slightly to continue losing fat at an optimal rate.

However, you shouldn't make any drastic cuts, as this is the reason most people lose muscle during a fat loss diet. I suggest dropping around 20g of carbs per day every 3 or 4 weeks. For example, if you're consuming 344g, 275g, and 206g, you'd reduce it to 324g, 255g, and 186g. If fat loss hasn't slowed down, there's no need to reduce anything though.

When trying to gain mass, there's no set pattern of increasing caloric intake. If after 2-3 weeks you haven't been gaining size, increase protein and carb intake by 25g each. At first, add this amount to your post-workout meal. If after another 2-3 weeks there's no change, add the same amount to your breakfast. If you're still not gaining, add some more to your post-workout shake, etc.



Carb cycling: Yeah, it seems to work!

Meal Breakdown

To maximize food absorption and favor muscle gain over fat gain (or to preserve muscle mass while dieting) you should ingest 6-7 meals per day. Three of those meals should contain carbs and proteins (breakfast, immediate post-workout drink, and meal 60-90 minutes after your workout). The remaining 3-4 meals should be made up of protein, good fats, and green veggies.

The ideal time to train is around 10:00am. This gives us the following eating schedule:

Meal 1 (upon waking up): Carbs + protein meal

Meal 2 (post-workout, around 11:00): Carbs + protein recovery drink (Surge)

Meal 3 (12:30): Carbs + protein meal

Meal 4 (15:30): Protein, fat, and green veggies

Meal 5 (18:00): Protein, fat, and green veggies

Meal 6 (21:00): Protein, fat, and green veggies

Obviously, not everybody can train at this time. For those who have to train in the evening (around 5:00 or 6:00pm), the following schedule is appropriate:

Meal 1 (upon waking up): Carbs + protein meal

Meal 2 (10:00) Carbs, protein, and green veggies

Meal 3 (12:30): Protein, fat, and green veggies

Meal 4 (15:30): Protein, fat, and green veggies

Meal 5 (Post-workout, around 18:00): Protein and carb drink

Meal 6 (21:00): Carbs + protein meal

Finally, those who have to train in the morning (around 8:00am) should use the following schedule:

Meal 1 (upon waking up): Carbs + protein meal drink

Meal 2 (post-workout, around 9:00): Carbs + protein recovery drink (Surge)

Meal 3 (12:30): Carbs + protein meal

Meal 4 (15:30): Protein, fat, and green veggies

Meal 5 (18:00): Protein, fat, and green veggies

Meal 6 (21:00): Protein, fat, and green veggies

* Note that in this last situation we use a carb and protein drink in the morning. This is because we need to get the nutrients absorbed as fast as possible so that digestion won't interfere with workout intensity.


Nutrients Per Meal

Since protein is ingested at all meals, it should be evenly divided. For example, if you consume 330g of protein per day, you should aim for 6 meals of 55g each.

Fat is ingested in 3 of the 6 meals and it should be equally divided among them. So if you have to consume 100g of fat, this comes up to 33g of fat in each of the 3 meals.

Carbohydrates are also ingested in 3 meals. About 50% of your carb intake should be consumed immediately post-workout, 25% in the morning and 25% around 60-90 minutes post-workout. So if you have to ingest 250g of carbohydrates per day, it comes up to 125g post-workout, 75g in the morning, and 75g about 60-90 minutes post-workout.


Food Choices

We've been talking about quantities for a while, but it's time now to talk about quality! A calorie is not a calorie; not all foods are created equal. To maximize your results, you thus need to put the right stuff into your body. Here's a quick list of the appropriate foods for each type of meal.

Breakfast (carbs + protein)

Protein sources: egg whites, Low-Carb Grow!, tuna, chicken

Carb sources: fruit (1-2 pieces to fill liver glycogen), oatmeal, grits, sweet potatoes, All-Bran cereal, buckwheat pancakes (no syrup)

Post-workout (carbs + protein)

Surge plus rice to fill the remaining carb requirement

60-90 minutes post-workout (carbs + protein)

Protein sources: chicken, fish, shrimp, lean cuts of meat, Low-Carb Grow!

Carb sources: sweet potatoes, brown rice, tomatoes, carrots, mushrooms, grits

Protein + fat meals

Protein sources: all cuts of meat, fish, chicken, turkey, tuna, Low-Carb Grow!, eggs, ham, cottage cheese

Fat sources: protein foods above, fish oil, flax seeds

Green veggies: 100-200g


Conclusion

If this article was somewhat more complex than my regular work, I apologize. However, to make the most out of your diet you can't simply "wing it." Paying attention to details is important and is sure to pay off in the near future.

This type of dieting has been proven effective in most individuals. In the long run, it'll lead to a much more muscular and leaner physique. It takes work, but your efforts will be rewarded!


Note: Christian Thibaudeau's Black Book of Training Secrets is now available in the T-Nation store.




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PUBLISHED 11-08-05 15:42
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didn't bother reading the aricle (I suffer from ADD :laugh:), interested to see who's tried this out and how much fat they put on whilst bulking as those carbs numbers are quite high

and

"another concern though is he suggests that 50% of ur carb intake should come pwo in the form of surge. given my circumstances using the above example i would need over 200grams of carbs in simple sugars. i think thats really extreme and a marketing strategy to move "surge" post workout drink"

agreed. I suppose the site has to generate income from somewhere

A very good article worth reading....

Carb Cycling is really the way to go for Bulking or cutting.

the article does make sense but since i came across it has lead me to large bodyfat gains. those numbers are definitely misleading. no endomorph can get away with those amount of carbs imho. what would the recommendations be with realistic numbers. my thoughts are 250g (high), 225 (mod), 200 (low). once u plateau, increase each by 20%.

Those carb figures do look very high. Chris Thibaudeau is generally very well respected and the T-Nation site is also pretty much a respected site, with a ton of useful knowledge available on it. But I know that for me personally, that would be WAY too much carbs!
Also, they do push their supplements (Biotest) which are considered pretty decent but very expensive (even by American standards). Springbok Pharmacy used to bring in a limited Biotest range, not sure if they still do.
Would be very interested to know if anyone has used Surge, and is so, how do they rate it??

no biotest in sa anymore

what you guys need to know is when bulking its not carbs that make you grow,its calories, so you can take in more fats and proteins and grow like weeds,you dont need massive amounts of carbs... the thing is with this carb cycling codex is i dont see any need to have a high carb day when you are bulking up,you are going to be taking in a surplus amount of calories,why do you now need to add in another 500-1000caloires a day... his principle about carb timing is very much on the money,i use some thing similar with my diets and it works well...

i have written an article in the dieting and contest prep section,something similar explaining this called dieting 101....

as shaunrsa says,not every one can handle those amounts of simple carbs,its actually ridiculous, i find that carbs are not the be all and end all of dieting,fats play a major major roll....

DJ 100%

You will grow just as big on Protein / Fat without storing bodyfat when bulking without carbs.

If you bulk with carbs you more than likely going to end up the same weight year after year when you cut down. This is frustrating and causes people to give up. If you use an anabolic diet 55-60% fat / 30-35 % protein and 5-8 % carbs that is when you grow like a weed. And then carb up on weekends to get that insulin spike 30-40% fat / 10-15% protein and 45-60% carbs.

There is so many benefits to eating like this and you don't get that ugly fat deposits as you find your body spreads out fat better this way.

ice-rip wrote: the article does make sense but since i came across it has lead me to large bodyfat gains. those numbers are definitely misleading. no endomorph can get away with those amount of carbs imho. what would the recommendations be with realistic numbers. my thoughts are 250g (high), 225 (mod), 200 (low). once u plateau, increase each by 20%.

Are you cutting or bulking? For me 200g of carbs on a low carb day would be too much (if cutting). I wouldn't go more than half that amount, 100g tops. DJ would be more qualified to answer that though.

shaunrsa, what you gotta realise is that its all about calories in vs calories out...

lets do this for an example :

joe average of 90kgs @ 15% body fat has been bulking at 3500 calories right. ok of that he was using 2g of protein per kg of over all mass for bulking so 400g of protein roughly (1600 calories) then he was having 300g carbs (1200 calories) and the rest from fats 75g. now joe average now wants to start dropping body fat. so he wants to create a calorie deficit so there are 3 ways he can do this...1.) add in cardio + extra sets and burn off the fat. 2.) cut back on calories to create a defecit or 3.) cut back on calories a little,and add in cardio.

now your best bet to do is to cut back 10% of calories and add in 30mins cardio a day and burn fat off....thats the best way.

ok so now in order to maintain muscle mass the average protein consumption is 1.5g of protein per kg of lean mass,to build muscle i suggest 2g per kg of lean mass... now what you can see is joe average has been eating 2g per over all body mass... now at 90kgs @ 15% body fat he has a lean mass of 76.5kgs right... now if you look at that in terms of pounds that means he is 168 pounds right.... so if he still wants to have the chance of putting on muscle mass he can use 2g of protein per pound... so 168 x 2 = 340g of protein. which brings him down 60g of protein a day from his bulking stage... now 60g of protein is 240calories... yet he is still having the same amount of carbs and fats but is in a 240calorie defecit,now add in 30mins of cardio thats roughly 400 calories,which is roughly 650 calories per day defecit yet his carbs and fats are the same!!

so the whole going to low on carbs and fats is a not true...if you bulk properly with higher protein and fats,and moderate carbs (200g) when it comes to cutting you can diet on the same amount of carbs and fats you have been for the time you have bulking and still get lean!!eventually later on into the diet you start dropping the fats and then start having carb ups where the calories you have dropped from fats get added in the form of carbs to full out and drive the metabolism a bit more of certain days of training...

Ja DJ that makes a lot of sense. But are all calories equal? When cutting, don't protein calories take precedent over all else, the rest is just playing with carb and fat ratios?

look you have to realise that it is a case of calories in vs calories out,so yes carbs and fat and protein ratios do play apart of this,remember that fats and carbs are your energy sources and these are usually why they get cut first,less energy calories the more body fat is used for energy...also by keeping the protein caloires on the higher side means that you can put on muscle whilst dieting if using anabolics...the best fat burner around is more muscle,10kgs of muscle means you need 330calories more just to survive everyday....

another thing that plays a vital role as explained in the article is nutrient timing! your carbs should be placed for breakfast,pre and post work out.. thats all... fats and veg should make up the remainder of your meals... the reason for this is cos fats have 0 effect on blood sugar levels and also they are slow to break down...the slow break down on the fats also slows the digestion of protein sources too and the fiber from the veg also slows down digestion...this will make you feel fuller for longer when dieting...

i like to keep my carbs in my diets that i design on the low side,i think the most i have had a client even when bulking is 250g of carbs,but they were sitting on close on 4500 calories daily.which means they were eating 3500 caloires a day from protein and fats,and the more they bulked the leaner they got..

i have shown a couple guys here that u dont need low calories to diet,the minute u start cutting calories too low you crash your metabolism too... the body needs food to loose weight,i like getting diets right where you stay the same weight for the first couple weeks but your body fat does come down,that way you eat yourself lean... its hard to explain but it is possible if you get the nutrient timing and ratios correct...

Ja that is pretty much the wisdom out there and I tend to agree with everything you have said DJ. As a matter of interest have you checked out this site? www.leangains.com

Its causing quite a stir. The scientific evidence and the case studies seem quite compelling. He appears to turn quite a lot of the conventional wisdom on it's head. It's very interesting reading.

00pump wrote: DJ 100%

You will grow just as big on Protein / Fat without storing bodyfat when bulking without carbs.

If you bulk with carbs you more than likely going to end up the same weight year after year when you cut down. This is frustrating and causes people to give up. If you use an anabolic diet 55-60% fat / 30-35 % protein and 5-8 % carbs that is when you grow like a weed. And then carb up on weekends to get that insulin spike 30-40% fat / 10-15% protein and 45-60% carbs.

There is so many benefits to eating like this and you don't get that ugly fat deposits as you find your body spreads out fat better this way.

guys with carbs that low .what about gluconeogenesis

What I am talking about is no more than 30 grams of carbs a day for some that figure might need to be as low at 10 grams.

You are talking about gluconeogenesis refering to using your own bodies muscle, etc for energy. This is not the case as fats are a great source of energy and as DJ has said a thousand times and doesn't impact your sugar levels (insulin).

You are not going into gluconeogenesis when on ketos to burn bodyfat. Spend some time reading up a bit more on how ketosis works.

Hence the reason the high level of fats required for this diet. If you don't and diet on protein alone that is where the problem comes as your liver will work overtime and gluconeogenesis will start it's wonderful process of breaking down muscle (where you store glycogen, water and proteins).

Hence the reason gluconeogenesis has nothing to do with a ketosis.

Hope that clears it up a bit.

DJ: Correct me if i'm wrong.

glucogenisis happens when your carbs are very low, (less than 40g a day like a on a keto diet) and your protein is too high. what happens is your body had the ability to convert those proteins into a readily available carb source (glucose) through glucogenisis. now the way to combat this is by keeping your protein at 1.5g per LB of Lean Body Mass,and then make up the rest of the calories from fats. so lets take joe average again who has been bulking on 3500 calories a day,at 170 pounds he would need 170x1.5g to maintain LBM which is 255g of protein a day. then the rest of his calories come from fats,now he wants to create a calorie defecit so 3500 calories - 500 calories = 3000 calories. 3000 - 1020 calories (protein yields 4 calories) = 1980 caloires /9 (fat holds 9 calories per gram) = 220g fats.. as long as his daily carb intake is less than 30-40g he will go into ketosis.... now glucogenisis wont happen here... if he adds in more protein and less fats he will go through glucogenisis.

Nicely put

look glucogensis can also happen in a diet thats high in protein and has decent carbs and fats,it is all possible.... but the only time you should worry about it is on a keto diet as to much protein will throw you out of ketosis....

And too little fats..

not really pump,i mean you can do protein and veg days on a keto diet and not have problems,the problems happen when you start doing High-moderate intensity cardio that glucogenisis becomes a problem,as when doing moderate to high intensity cardio on keto your body requires glucose for energy,so now this is where the problems occour as there is little to no spare glucose(other than the day after a carb up) to fuel your cardio session,so then your body starts to break down hard earned muscle in order to convert to glucose through glucogensis,so even if you are eating 400g of fat in your diet and 300g protein,you will still break down muscle to convert to glucose through glucogenisis to fuel the higher intensity cardio sessions

Ahh makes sense.. thanks.

So DJ, are you saying to cut out cardio on a keto diet, or to just do low intensity cardio?

low intensity cardio on keto... heart rate less that 120bpm.... its the most boring shit you can imagine but it does get the job done....

DJ wrote: low intensity cardio on keto... heart rate less that 120bpm.... its the most boring shit you can imagine but it does get the job done....

Ja, I see Dave Palumbo at RX Muscle also recommends less than 120bpm cardio on a keto diet too. I friggin HATE cardio at the best of times lol. How long do you recommend a cardio session should last and for how many times a week (when cutting on a keto diet)?

30-60 mins every day