intermittent fasting

im not sure bout your dosages but i presume it will be:
Var 60mg?
Prov 40mg?

Split the var 3 dosages and provi in 2. So lets say var @ 8am, 2pm and 8pm(6hour apart). Provi @ 8am and 8pm(12hours apart).
Im not sure if this is just bro science,but ive heard that taking proviron with another oral increases the proviron uptake slightly. I am also aware that orals in a fasted state will be better absorbed. I fone of the doses fall close to a meal just take it about 30min before food or an hour or 2 after. I have quite allot of experience using leangains so just ask if you need anything.

Hey Megusta, I'm in doubt how much gear I should be taking, the sample cycle states tapering up to a max 80mg Var and 60mg Prov. You reckon 60/40 would be suffice?

It makes sense to take orals fasted for uptake, but I've read a counter argument; that your stomach acids will be too harsh and dissolve the gear too quickly to be absorbed properly. Don't know about that, questionable but it got me thinking.

My concern is eliciting an insulin response from the gear (since they contain oil), thus breaking the fast. If this is the case ideally you need to dose fed, so for that it means 1200 'until about midnight (last meal around 1700).

If it does not affect insulin dosing would be: Var split up evenly throughout the day (6 hours) and Prov twice daily, 10AM and PM or something.

Good to have another IFer around bro.

A few things: I'm not sure what orals ur using that contains oil? And your body isn't stupid. It won't produce extra HCI and bile if you are fasted. Surely there is nothing to digest. Logic tells me that you will secrete more more acid after eating unless you have indigestion etc. You will be fine takin them fasted and probably increase absorbtion anyway. Oral tabs won't kill ur fasted state. Unless ofcourse you have placebo or sugar orals!

Megusta wrote: It won't produce extra HCI and bile if you are fasted. Surely there is nothing to digest. Logic tells me that you will secrete more more acid after eating unless you have indigestion etc.

Stomach acid is secreted when food is ingested yes (particularly evident with milk), but food also levels the current acid out by giving it something to digest i.e. using it up. I'm not disagreeing with your uptake opinion while fasted - that's exactly what I wanted to confirm since I heard that taking them fasted will be wasting gear. Just wanted an extra opinion 'cause info on this is pretty rare.

Hi megusta
I'm planning on IF in a month or so, and would love some advice
I'm planning to do a bulk with 2 pre-workout meals..
My question is where do I eat my fats ? And also on a bulk what's the ratio I should use ?

Don't use IF for bulking. It is nowhere near as effective as your normal 6-8 meal diet with a caloric surplus. Also, you should be getting in most of your calories post workout, not pre workout. Once your body has adjusted to IF (give it at least 2 weeks) you can switch to fasted training and you will be amazed at how you can lift without anything for hours preworkout.

We are so conditioned to thinking that we MUST have calories in or a booster before we workout. That is true when your body is used to a refuel every few hours, but with IF your metabolism shifts and lipolysis goes into turbo mode to provide the energy you need for your workout and you benefit from increased growth hormone production.

Eating preworkout on IF defeats the purpose because when fasting an insulin release has an enhanced inhibitory effect on lipolysis, so you could store more fat this way than when eating regularly.

Tanx muscle.. But my choice of 2pre-workout meals is because I work from 9-5, n get off at 2-3 for lunch so I'll have my 2 small meals at 2.30 and at 5.30 n then train at 7.30-9, n then have my postworkout meal at 9.30.. And where do I fit in the fats? N instead of a bulk.. I can do a lean gain which the ratio is 30/40/30 on workout days n rest day its 50/10/40 as megusta posted.. And with my times of work, and let's say after 2weeks of IF, how do I eat with fated training? Let's say I have 80percent of my macros postwork out n 20percent b4 I sleep ? Or am I off?

You can go with Megusta's macros split. If you can't fit in fasted training because of work hours then its not a total train smash, but your post workout meal should always contain the bulk of your carbs and calories for the day. Aim for around 50-60%. Rather do only one light meal preworkout, then your BIG meal post workout and one before bed. Luckily with IF you don't have to be as careful about what you eat to hit your macros. Just keep your preworkout meal to something light with high protein, and then you can fit in your fats whenever after your workout as long as it falls in your eating window. You can have some fats preworkout but just be aware that you have an increased insulin response when on this diet and that reduced fat burning during your workout is not ideal.

So that means my 1st meal will be at 5.30, then 9.30 n then 11 will be my smallest meal.. So that will be like a 16 hour fast.. And on leangains.com I was reading that bcaas can be consumed tru the day and some black coffe ? Is it ok if I have the coffee for breakfast and bcaas at 11am n 3pm n also pre-workout ? And also in your guys experience what's the best pre-workout meal in IF ?

Smally, I lost my weight using an IF protocol purely because it suits my lifestyle and didn't get too hung up on exact timings. I just had two meals of on average 600 cal's mid morning and a good meal of 1300 at night post workout. I drank shitloads of coffee during the day to appease my appetitite but the key was tracking and accounting for every calorie that when in my mouth.

I tried to bulk using IF but battled to get in all my calories in just two meals, so for a bulk I would recommend more frequent meals. My 2c.

Tanx for the input.. I will follow it when I do IF for leangain , the bulk I will do with my usual 6meal a day..I guess I'll start IF after I'm happy with what size I got.. And the reason I wanted to do bulk with iF is because I weigh 57kg and 1.55m tall and 22 years old.. So for me to bulk according to the calculation from djs stickies with a surplus of 500calories is around 2400-2550calories and that's not such a problem to get in, in 3meals..

smally99 wrote: Tanx for the input.. I will follow it when I do IF for leangain , the bulk I will do with my usual 6meal a day..I guess I'll start IF after I'm happy with what size I got.. And the reason I wanted to do bulk with iF is because I weigh 57kg and 1.55m tall and 22 years old.. So for me to bulk according to the calculation from djs stickies with a surplus of 500calories is around 2400-2550calories and that's not such a problem to get in, in 3meals..

Good idea to do a regular bulk first then man Judging by your weight (although 1.55m) I reckon you can gain some serious pounds by eating right, training hard and sleeping tight. Set a time period for your bulk/ weight on the scale, and when you reach that reassess your program. AKA, set a bulking goal *now* and do IF when you get flabby.

Tanx man.. And can your'll share some light on this eating what u want on IF but make sure to meet your macro's.. In my understanding it seems that if I want to stop at mac-donalds after gym for a couple cheese burgers its fine ?

There are a couple of rules I always follow, cut or bulk, IF or grazing - and many people will guide you along these as well:

1) Get your daily protein in for the day (1g/ lb bodyweight for example is a popular formula, I aim for higher)
2) Carbs around workouts only.
3) Complex carbs over simple carbs.
4) Lots of raw/ healthy/ fibrous veg
5) Avoid empty calories, they don't assist you at all (alcohol, sugar in drinks ect)
6) Minimize unhealthy saturated fats.

I would not recommend IF as a way to binge on fast food, if you want to eat what you please you need a paradigm shift on diet or incorporate cheat meals - not IF. That said, IF does allow more flexible eating than the regular clinical, body-building grazing methods; by allotting calories for a meal that would be considered "cheating" by BB standards. IF is the best way to get away with IIFYM in other words - just don't be ridiculous. On rest days you should be eating clinically clean though.

For example: I usually have oats as carbs in my post-post workout meal, with IF I don't have a post-workout shake, so on the fast-breaking meal, I will added some raisins and all-bran flakes to my oats, maybe use sauce on my chicken I wouldn't usually do.

For easy calorie calculation:
www.1percentedge.com/ifcalc/

For tons of info:
www.elitefitness.com/forum/diet-bodybuil...n-thread-947273.html
www.leangains.com

For proof and scientific research:
Eat-Stop-Eat, Brad Pilon

PS: You never stop at McDonald's after gym. Joe Weider just turned in his grave when he heard that suggestion.

Very good post Furk!

Furk wrote: PS: You never stop at McDonald's after gym. Joe Weider just turned in his grave when he heard that suggestion.

I guess that's why Weider never rated Lee Priest highly in the Mr. Olympias. When asked about his tricks in his bulking phase Lee said he would go to straight to MacDonalds after gym. :lol:

Muscleaddict wrote: Don't use IF for bulking. It is nowhere near as effective as your normal 6-8 meal diet with a caloric surplus. Also, you should be getting in most of your calories post workout, not pre workout. Once your body has adjusted to IF (give it at least 2 weeks) you can switch to fasted training and you will be amazed at how you can lift without anything for hours preworkout.

We are so conditioned to thinking that we MUST have calories in or a booster before we workout. That is true when your body is used to a refuel every few hours, but with IF your metabolism shifts and lipolysis goes into turbo mode to provide the energy you need for your workout and you benefit from increased growth hormone production.

Eating preworkout on IF defeats the purpose because when fasting an insulin release has an enhanced inhibitory effect on lipolysis, so you could store more fat this way than when eating regularly.

MA where can I read up on this that IF is not good for bulking? Haven't seen anything like that yet..

I don't have any links on that debate bookmarked but I have also tried it while using gear last year and I know how my body usually responds. If IF was better for bulking then you'd see all the pros doing it off season. I remember reading Christian Thibaudeu saying he has used IF and got decent results but he wouldn't put his clients on IF because it's harder to gain muscle on.

I didn't say you can't bulk on IF, just that you will gain more if you take those same calories and follow the regular 6-8 meals a day. IF is nice for steady lean gains and fat loss.

If you're considering it for yourself now I would choose it over your keto diet, but not when bulking is the priority.

Have been reading up on it for the last few weeks, because of all the positive reviews and so forth. For me and for anyone in future I can help. What do you think about keto combined with IF? Might not get all the advantages but keto is so easy to follow and hit your macros if there is any advantage whatsoever from eating in an 8 hour period then why not take it?

Having done both keto and IF I just don't think it is necessary to combine the 2. It is overcomplicating things and getting a newbie who wants advice on fat loss to follow that properly would be way more complex and inconvenient than it's worth. The diet that works the best is the one you can follow. Yes the combo would work for fat loss, but you will struggle to gain muscle.

One of IF's major benefits is your body's increased insulin sensitivity and how this can be used to put you in an extremely anabolic state post workout. By combining keto you would miss out on this so I would definitely not recommend it for guys who are already on the leaner side like under 15% body fat who have a decent amount of muscle. You could get abs just by using IF.

Yeah sure bud I was thinking about combining keto and IF for myself though? Would there be any benefit to it? I can´t find many discussions on that..

What are you hoping to achieve? Try normal intermittent fasting first for a while before you think about combining the two, so you know how you respond to that. It is very effective for fat loss. You don't have to be as strict about the type of foods you eat as a 6-8 meal diet.

I find with IF I have to be pretty strict MA, but complex carbs don't cut it for me. I only eat white potatoe and pasta now when on IF. Pyro it takes tinkering but you get the hang of it very fast as you can identify what needs to be eliminated fairly easily with the low meal frequency.

@MA: Keto is 5 really easy meals to eat. I can eat my whole day´s calories in one sitting if I have to, so the time frame is not a problem at all. Was thinking that it would not be a long stretch from the way I am eating right now to switch to an IF regiment. But I struggle to find any research on whether there are any benefits to doing IF without carbs (i.e Keto or bodyopus diet).

@Chapel: Thanx for the feedback bud.

Pyro, give it a shot if you want but I wouldn't do it. You won't gain muscle imo. The carbs on IF post workout are very important to keep you anabolic after a long fasting period. You need to make the most of your natural insulin spikes and glycogen loading at the right times to keep anabolic or you will lose size.

I'll see if I can find some info.

@Chapel What P/C/F macro split were you using when you did IF and how much over/under maintenance were you eating?