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18 Aug 2013 12:52 #147843 by 6+6+6
Replied by 6+6+6 on topic Official peptide thread
With regards to the post workout pin, it needs to be done as soon as possible after training to capatalize on all that scientific shit, like IGF increase and so on. But how many minutes are we talking about here? I can't exactly take a 'juice box' filled with ice and peptides to gym to pin while I'm still panting. So my question is: If I can't pin within a certain time frame after training is it safer to move post workout shot to pre workout?

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21 Aug 2013 11:20 #148137 by 6+6+6
Replied by 6+6+6 on topic Official peptide thread
Ok never mind my last question. Got it figured out.

What I do want to know though, is how good is the quality of 'Enhanced Peptides' ipamorelin and cjc 1295 w/o dac. .?

This is what DAT from Datbtrue has to say

"The reason a LOT of foolish people swear by higher dosing is the inferior quality of their peptides and the fact that the net amount of a peptide is as low as a third of the total net weight. Therefore it isn't surprising that people choose to dose 300mg of a peptide. In reality a clinical grade peptide such as Tom's would produce the same effect at saturation dose."

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21 Aug 2013 11:36 #148142 by Muscleaddict
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6+6+6 wrote: What I do want to know though, is how good is the quality of 'Enhanced Peptides' ipamorelin and cjc 1295 w/o dac. .?


They are great. I have used them before and got good results. My wife who is shit scared of needles was so impressed with my results that she psyched herself up for a few months to face the idea of all the injections and is now injecting herself 2x a day with enhanced peptides ipam+cjc.

She could feel it within the first week. More focused at work and more energy to do stuff after work when she is usually exhausted.
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21 Aug 2013 11:40 #148143 by Oupa
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6+6+6 wrote:
What I do want to know though, is how good is the quality of 'Enhanced Peptides' ipamorelin and cjc 1295 w/o dac. .?


I can also confirm this product is solid. Very good.
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21 Aug 2013 11:48 #148144 by 6+6+6
Replied by 6+6+6 on topic Official peptide thread
That's really good news! Amped to start my ipam/cjc, just waiting for stock :(
I've done the research, I just need my damn peptides now!
Thanks again for all you help! Much appreciated.

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21 Aug 2013 12:06 #148148 by Muscleaddict
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Just note that the younger you are, the longer it will take to get noticeable effects.

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21 Aug 2013 12:14 #148149 by 6+6+6
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24

That's why I'm keen on peptides. to young for HGH (apparently).. Insomnia. & injuries.

Will do the same dosing schedule you did.

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21 Aug 2013 12:39 #148158 by 6+6+6
Replied by 6+6+6 on topic Official peptide thread


She could feel it within the first week. More focused at work and more energy to do stuff after work when she is usually exhausted.


If I can get that, I'd be satisfied! It would be Money well spent!

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18 Sep 2013 20:52 #151528 by Fakey_AK
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I didn't want to completely hijack 333 thread so i thought i will ask here.

Mister MA or anyone else who has some input, I'm looking for the best way to run IGF1 and Peg MGF peptide stack.

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18 Sep 2013 21:58 #151536 by Muscleaddict
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Mister MA? Lol

The timing when using those together is quite complex because of how they work together to stimulate hyperplasia and muscle cell growth. The pegMGF is like a MGF with an extremely long half life like tren enan vs tren a, and it is active for a few days.

You want to wait at least 24 hours after your PegMGF shot before you do your IGF1 so it does not interfere with the stem cell proliferation. The IGF1 will then bind to receptors on the stem cells and force them to grow into new muscle cells. You only need to use PegMGF 2x a week. I think 200mg was the max dose. If you train 5 days a week do the Peg on your off days, and IGF1 LR3 on workout days immediately post workout. A lot of guys prefer pre-workout. Might as well experiment with both.

The IGF you can do IM site injections, max dose 100mg 3x a week injected into your worked muscle groups (split bilaterally) that need growth the most, or start with 5x a week 50mcg split.
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19 Sep 2013 07:36 #151549 by MCJ
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I've browsed through most this thread mainly just skimming through as I'm looking for info on MGF. Any info / advice on how to run this EFFECTIVELY on its own in conjunction with AAS? PegMGF and also MGF. Dosage and duration? Seems to be quite a wide range on doses on the net.

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19 Sep 2013 07:41 #151550 by Fakey_AK
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Thanx Mister MA :P

Another thing that I have read is that PegMGF needs to injecting multiple times on different places of the muscle injected.

For instance if you injecting chest you need to pin each pec at least 10x, 10 different places evenly spread out. The reason for this was cause of the cells that absorb it quickly, so you need to spread it out to cover more ground. Not sure how true this is.

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19 Sep 2013 07:58 #151553 by MCJ
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Fakey_AK wrote: Thanx Mister MA :P

Another thing that I have read is that PegMGF needs to injecting multiple times on different places of the muscle injected.

For instance if you injecting chest you need to pin each pec at least 10x, 10 different places evenly spread out. The reason for this was cause of the cells that absorb it quickly, so you need to spread it out to cover more ground. Not sure how true this is.


No man.....I hope this isn't correct :huh:

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19 Sep 2013 09:15 #151572 by Fakey_AK
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I don't hope so too MCJ

Here is what I'm referring to. I have read this on a few sites.


Proliferation and Differentiation. What do these two words mean, how do these processes promote muscle growth, and how do we optimize them through the use of PEG-MGF and IGF-1? Please allow me to break this down into its most simple form. MGF is the hormone responsible for expanding our pool of stem cells. The expansion of these cells is what's known as proliferation. Proliferation is the 1st step in the process of forming new muscle cells. Once these stems cells have recieved the message to proliferate through the actions of MGF, what type of cells they become, whether muscle or otherwise, depends on the message they later recieve from other hormones.

IGF-1 is what's know as a differentiator. Differentiation is the process responsible for turning immature stem cells into a defined cell type. When a stem cell is exposed to the actions of IGF-1, the cell type created is a muscle cell. However, it is very important to note that each of these processes must take place at the correct time. If one process is begun before the other has finished its work, either the entire process is short-circuited, or partial results are achieved. When a muscle(s) is exposed to stress (such as weight training), it's first response is to produce localized MGF. MGF is produced only in the muscle, not in the liver like GH mediated IGF-1 production. After training, It is vital that MGF be allowed to fully perform its function of proliferation before IGF-1 is introduced into the system. Otherwise, the inhibitory actions IGF1 will immediately halt the proliferation process and reduce the total number of stem cells available for differentiation into muscle cells. In other words, introducing IGF-1 at the wrong time will limit our rate of muscle growth.

In the past, the typical maner of administering PEG MGF and IGF-1 would be to use 200-300 mg of PEG-MGF immediately post-workout 2X weekly, followed by an injection of IGF-1 the other 5 days per week. In principle this theory is sound, as the PEG-MGF will expand the number of available stem cells, which can then subsequently be differentiated by IGF-1 the following day. However, there are 3 significant problems with this method of use. For one, since PEG-MGF is typically injected only 2 X per week, the BB'r is usually going to choose to inject it after training the bodyparts he most wants to improve, but what happens if he also trains a bodypart on the days he adminsters IGF-1? Being that IGF-1 is typicallly administered on the days PEG-MGF isn't (which is usually 5 days per week), it is highly likley that the BB'r is going to be training on at least some of the days he adminsters IGF-1. That means that on those days, the growth process involving these growth factors will be short-circuited, due to the inhibitory actions of exogenous IGF-1, and the end result will be less than optimal muscle growth.

The second issue which arises due to the current pattern of use, is that by using PEG-MGF on non-consecutive days 2X per week, the proliferation process will always be cut short due to the constant interloping of exogenous IGF-1. Because of this, the number of available stem cell will never grow very large and the potential for differenetiation will remain limited. The 3rd issue is in regards to PEG-MGF dosing....it is too light. It is now proposed that using 2 mg per week is much closer to the ideal dosage than the commonly prescribed 400 mg per week. If we use prior research as a gauage for determining proper dosing, it would point to our current dosing guidelines as being inadequate. It is a certainty that higher dosages of PEG-MGF are necessary in order to maximize stem cell proliferation. Although user experiences in this dosing range are currently minimal, what has been witnessed does appear to confirm this. In addition, the proposal is scientifically sound.

Now that I have explained the logic for why the older methods of administration are believed to be flawed in their approach, I will go over how to implement the new method of administration. The PEG-MGF molecule is always used over standard MGF, as MGF has a very short active life, being only minutes in length, while PEG-MGF will stay active for days. This enables the PEG version to deliver a much more pronounced effect. It is also important to remember that the PEG attachment does not alter the effects of the MGF molecule. The PEG attachment acts purely to extend its duration of action. As for what form of IGF-1 should be chosen, I believe IGF-1 LR3 is the superior choice only because of its greatly extended active life, which is about 24 hours in length. DES IGF-1 is a very potent form of IGF-1, being about 4X as potent as IGF-1 LR3 on a mcg basis, but its active life is only about 20 minutes. So, unless one was willing and able to administer DES many times per day, LR3 remains the better option for whole-body growth. DES is superior for site enhancment and will also deliver systematic benefits, but when it comes to a single daily injection, DES cannot trump LR3 when it comes to its whole-body benefits.

In contrast to most other injectable drugs, PEG-MGF cannot be administered with a singular inject. Several micro-injects must be used because even though PEG-MGF is systematic in its effects, the injected muscle will still recieve a greater amount of benefit. Why? While both steroid esters and the PEG attachemnt serve primarily to extend the active life of the steroid, there are critical differences between the two. With esterfied AAS, the ester must first be cleaved from the steroid before it is able to attach to the AR and cause muscle growth. This is why esterfied steroids do not cause site growth (although some users think they do due to the inflammation and subsqeuent swelling which occurs), as the steroid will already have entered circulation and become systemtaic prior to the ester being cleaved from the steroid molecule. However, unlike AAS, the PEG portion of the drug does not need to be cleaved off before it is able to attach to its receptor site and deliver its message. Also unlike AAS, the MGF molecule (whether it is MGF or PEG-MGF) communicates through cell to cell interaction. Once the PEG-MGF comes in contact with a muscle cell (such as during an injection), the affected muscle cell will relay the same signal to the adjoining muscle cells. More so, this signal will eventually stop being passed along to adjoining cells, making a single inject unsuitable for treating the entire muscle.

Another characteristic of PEG-MGF, which plays a role in the way it is administered, is the fact that it causes a disproportionate degree of muscle growth in the injected muscle, compared to the rest of the body. However, with PEG-MGF being systematic in nature, one might ask why this happens, being that the compound will eventually spread around to the entire body anyway. This is a question I would have to research, so I cannot answer it right now. Still, I speculate that there may be 3 reasons for this. For one, the injected muscle is directly exposed to the entire amount of the drug on a first come basis. Two, the compound will immediately begin attaching to receptor sites as soon as it is injected, likley using up a substantial portion of the drug before it has a chance to become systematic. Three, due to the micro-injection technique, which is explained below, the entire muscle is exposed to the actions of the drug in large quantities.

Below I will lay out the micro-injection technique. It is a pain in the ass to be sure, but due to the use of 30-31g. insulin needles, this process is made much more tolerable. The micro-injection process involves injecting a small portion of the drug into multiple locations within the same muscle. In the case of smaller bodyparts, this can be as many as 14-16 injections, split bi-laterally. In larger bodyparts, 20 injections split bilaterally is more appropriate. Remember, MGF communicates its actions cell to cell, so this micro-injection technique must be incorporated into one's protocol if optimal results are desired. Using a small amount of injections will drastically limit the amount ofuscle cells which are exposed to the actions of the MGF...and a single injection will severely limit the drug's ability to turn on stem cell proliferation. Now, before anyone is turned away by the sheer volume of injections, it should be noted that this only needs to be performed twice weekly. In addition, the use of 30-31g. 1/2 inch insulin pins reduces scar tissue build-up to less than what would be experienced with just a couple injections using a 22 g. needle. the pain factor is almost a non-issue, as it should be near painless. Lastly, this only needs to be performed for 4 weeks, after which point MGF injections cease and are then followed by a single sub-q IGF-1 LR3 injection per day for the next 4 weeks. It is up to the individual if they want to repeat the program after its conclusion.


Here is an example of how one might target their chest with this program:

Weeks 1-4
Day #1 (post-workout): Inject 1 mg of PEG-MGF into the pecs. Split this 1 mg up into twenty 50 mcg injections and place 10 injects on the right side of the chest, followed by 10 injects in the left side of the chest. Make sure each injection is placed fairly evenly apart. Use a 30-31g. 1/2 inch syringe.

Day #2 (about 3-4 days after day 1): Same as above.


Weeks 5-8
Days 1-28: IGF-1 LR3 @ 100 mcg once daily

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19 Sep 2013 10:01 - 19 Sep 2013 10:02 #151579 by Muscleaddict
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That's from DAT who we know is very smart but he has also said that info is anecdotal as there is no scientific evidence either way about multiple injections. I have not researched this like he has but I personally would never do that as PegMGF has a systemic effect and it will travel through the bloodstream to where it is needed most. But it is logical that multiple injections will work better- how much better is anyone's guess. But by that logic you should be doing multiple injections all over the trained muscle for site growth from IGF1 as well. I would also recommend 400mg a week to see how you respond as that has worked for many others. For a first cycle I would run it on it's own as well without the IGF to see what it does otherwise you won't know what is doing what.
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19 Sep 2013 10:03 #151580 by Muscleaddict
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MCJ wrote: I've browsed through most this thread mainly just skimming through as I'm looking for info on MGF. Any info / advice on how to run this EFFECTIVELY on its own in conjunction with AAS? PegMGF and also MGF. Dosage and duration? Seems to be quite a wide range on doses on the net.


MGF is pretty useless compared to PegMGF. It is only biologically active for a few minutes which is not long enough to anywhere near effective as Peg so I'd say stick with PegMGF.

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19 Sep 2013 10:23 #151583 by MCJ
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Dammit. My one supplier only has MGF. Let the search for pegMGF commence

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19 Sep 2013 11:37 #151597 by MCJ
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This stuff is so confusing its giving me a headache.

I'm thinking of either Peg MGF or cjc with DAC or maybe both. Thing is, I can't seem to find if they will work in synergy with each other or not....

Also not sure how long a "sufficient" cycle of each or both would be as well as sufficient dosages.

I'm not interested in the debate over cjc with or without DAC so if possible plz concentrate on what I've asked above. Trying to figure out how much of each or both I will need for a cycle and how to dosage it.

Any informed advice would be appreciated. I know MA said its new territory to him but would really appreciate his advice on the above as his scientific head is light years ahead of mine lol

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19 Sep 2013 12:10 #151602 by Muscleaddict
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There is no synergy with PegMGF and CJC worth noting. CJC (DAC or without) is a waste without a GHRP. It might cost more than the GHRPs do but on it's own it releases less HGH than any of the GHRPs mcg vs mcg. Adding a GHRP will give you 4x the amount of HGH release.

GHRH/GHRPs all need to be run at least 8 weeks I'd say and preferably 3 months.

The PegMGF I'd say run 400mg/week so a 2mg vial will last 5 weeks. That is long enough to see if it works for you and then you can reassess if you want to do more or switch to something else.
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19 Sep 2013 12:23 #151606 by MCJ
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Muscleaddict wrote: There is no synergy with PegMGF and CJC worth noting. CJC (DAC or without) is a waste without a GHRP. It might cost more than the GHRPs do but on it's own it releases less HGH than any of the GHRPs mcg vs mcg. Adding a GHRP will give you 4x the amount of HGH release.

GHRH/GHRPs all need to be run at least 8 weeks I'd say and preferably 3 months.

The PegMGF I'd say run 400mg/week so a 2mg vial will last 5 weeks. That is long enough to see if it works for you and then you can reassess if you want to do more or switch to something else.


Moerse dankie MA

How would u split the 400mcg?

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19 Sep 2013 12:40 #151607 by Muscleaddict
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200mg twice a week. Unless you're using IGF1 exact timing isn't too important because of the extremely long half life. Actually, I would probably bump the dose up a bit to 300mg twice a week as well actually just to be sure. You never know if your stuff is underdosed like most Chinese peptides are, and you are a big guy as well.

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19 Sep 2013 13:04 #151610 by MCJ
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Muscleaddict wrote: 200mg twice a week. Unless you're using IGF1 exact timing isn't too important because of the extremely long half life. Actually, I would probably bump the dose up a bit to 300mg twice a week as well actually just to be sure. You never know if your stuff is underdosed like most Chinese peptides are, and you are a big guy as well.

Manufacturer is Swiss. So u suggest I use this on its own to see how it goes. I'm coming off cycle now last few days of bridge. Thanx for the help MA

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19 Sep 2013 13:10 #151611 by Muscleaddict
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Why not IGF1? What was your experience like with IGF1 LR3 before?

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19 Sep 2013 13:35 #151620 by MCJ
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Muscleaddict wrote: Why not IGF1? What was your experience like with IGF1 LR3 before?


Trying to be cost effective and also want something that's long acting so to avoid the technical pinning times with regard to meals etc. Also can't go pinning during the day at work by the cop shop lol. Loved the igflr3 but this peg mgf would be way cheaper. Would also be interested to try something new and see for myself what it does and from there decide on adding other compounds

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19 Sep 2013 13:41 #151624 by Muscleaddict
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Makes sense.

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