When is it time for TRT? MY SCENARIO

Hey Guys

I hope everyone is well!

So here is my scenario!

I am now 23 years old. I made some BIG mistakes when I was much younger with taking gear, it was a stupid move and I guess I now have to live with the consequences! I used to be on the forum ages ago and DJ was actually the guy who tried to give me advice on not taking gear and trying to sort out my diet but I was ignorant and stubborn and thought I new better which to this day I just wanna kick myself in the face for!

I competed at Body Beautiful last year and I did a pre contest stack, I took all the precautions I could, like HCG during, controlled estrogen, etc.

I did PCT 3 at the end, stayed clean for 4 weeks and I went and did bloods! ( This was the first time I have done bloods )

Total test: 7
Free test: 200
IGF1: 260
Estradiol: 122
LH: 3.5

I then RE did PCT 3 again, and waited 4 weeks, and did bloods again ( This was in January )

Total test: 11
Free Test: 300
IGF1: 300
Estradiol: 72
LH: 5


I then went to my physician just to get his opinion! And here is what I have been doing now!
He told me that we can get my levels back to normal again it may just take some time!
Here is what he has put me on now:

DHEA
Dixirit ( Medication that stimulates the pituary gland to produce more gh)
HCG (5000ius a week)
Kessar

I did that for about 3 months, did bloods again, and levels were SLIGHTLY up, but not much!

So he has now added in: Tri-male cream ( Similar to androgel, not sure if you guys have heard of it)
He added this for 6 weeks ( this is my first week now) just to see how i respond to it!

So I will keep you all posted with how my results go. Just thought this would be a good place to show my progress and let you all know how this works for me.

But my question: When is it time for TRT? IF you do everything I am trying to do as said above, and it doesnt work?
And what does TRT even consist of?

Would really appreciate some feedback!

Thanks guys

Boet, you are 20 years away from trt age... haha

Used to be 200mg test cyp every week or two weeks.
Think you should just give it more time.

Eish, another one of these threads. I know how worried you must be bud, but you really just need to give it time. These threads have popped up quite a few times and all it takes is some time and everyone comes back eventually and says the'r hormones came right. That said, if you are taking so long to recover at your age then steroids are probably not for you. You should not have started so young in the first place to be honest. One's endocrine system often only finishes developing around 25 years old. But I really think you can get things sorted out without thinking about HRT.

If you are on a cream like androgel like you say, then you are basically on TRT already. Supplementing any testosterone is going to suppress your natural testosterone.

If I remember correctly you were on quite a cocktail of stuff including tren. How long was it between when you did your last injection/oral steroid and your last blood test?

I am no doctor but I do spend quite a bit of time following what the top current hypogonadism treatments are and I can guarantee you that 5000IU HCG a week is certainly not recommended anymore by any doctors who specialise in hypogonadism and hasn't been for a long time. Studies also have proven that HCG does cause a negative feedback system on the HPTA PARTICULARLY at high doses, and when you stop taking it there is an adjustment period where your testosterone levels take a dip before bouncing back. So it is important not to get a blood test during this time.

Also I can't understand why your doctor is prescribing you Dixarit when your IGF1 levels are between 260-300. At 23 years old 300 is completely normal and an indication of healthy HGH levels? Fiddling with that isn't going to have any effect on your testosterone levels so I assume there must be another reason?

Did your doc test your prolactin levels when you first went to him? Hyperprolactinemia is quite common after using tren when men are struggling with post cycle hypogonadism, and doctors will not generally test prolactin levels because they don't know about the link with steroids.

@muscleaddcit

Thanks very much for the reply bud, i appreciate it alot.

The last time I did my last shot was the 20th of september 2012. I will bring up the Dixarit when I see him next and see what he has to say about this.

We actually did a Prolactin and Progestrone test last week so as soon as i get those results I will let you know!

Would you reccomend to someone in my position, to come off all of the above an djust recover on my own?
Thanks again bud

And another question Muscle, What would healthy total test and free test levels be?? Healthy enough to be able to build muscle ofcourse??

Great info MA

@ Switch - Bro,im nearly in the same boat as you man..made some stupid mistakes when i was 22-23..all i ran was winny suspension for 5 weeks and some anavar..after all this i went for bloods and my total test was a 6 count and free was something like 180!!! FUCK low!
So got hold of a doc..and he said i should take somethingthat contains Longifolia Jack & some tribulus..so got some animal stak and tribulus tabs..said to take it for 8 weeks then see how my body reacts to it,so did this..went for bloods..my total count went up to 12 and free was like 280..si it improved quite a bit..so he said my body is reacting to it..so suggested that i stay on stak & tribulus for 6 months,,he said i should be all godd then i hope so:) i also try add a lil ZMA ass well and im tryne drop the smoking and all

now the question is how does your diet look now? the reason i ask is because diet also plays a major role in your hormones, did you also have thyroid tests done? i think you need to get on a balanced diet,with some decent healthy food sources and you will also need to look over your vitamin and mineral supplementation as having a lack of certain nutrients can also have an issue with your test levels.

DJ am i correct in saying the higher the BF % the higher the estrogen levels which could cause low tets levels?

Jip you are correct MRfeathers..the lower the BF the more test

@Snitch- How could I forget :lol: , you were freaking out all over the forum. Good to hear things have improved.

@Switch- Better late than never but that prolactin test should have been done ages ago, and you're probably in the normal range now. Please post your full blood test results when you have them. Your blood work from January would have most likely improved a lot. Your LH was completely normal at 5 and should result in a much higher test level than 11 if not double that. This usually gets doctors worrying about primary hypogonadism because it can be an indicator that your testes aren't responding to the message to make more testosterone. But because of your steroid cycle none of these numbers will be reliable enough to diagnose any condition yet. Your high estrogen would have suppressed your testosterone quite a bit. One could take drug x, y or z but most important is to just give it time.

I don't see any point in you taking kessar or something like clomid, because their job is to stimulate your pituitary to increase LH production- Your LH level at 5 was fine despite your elevated estrogen which would suppress LH somewhat.

So your doc is giving you HCG to resensitise your testes response to LH which is all fine and well but you shouldn't be on the HCG long at that crazy high dose of 5000IU a week because that will do the opposite. DHEA is good so keep taking that.

Your free test at 300 is low yes but not shocking. For healthy guys in mid 20's normal is 400-500. But as long as there is an improvement over the last test then that is fine because that shows you're recovering.

Hahaha..Thnks MA yea i was freaking out pretty bad..lol..cant loose my manhood brother
Im busy finishing off my first month now of the 6 months on the Stak..so hopefully all goes well..just killing my pocket!!! The Doc sad i should try this natural root before trying kessar hcg etc

Thanks for the usefull info you posting here for Switch... helping me understand things a lil better as well

The reason I asked is because I had a very long argument with a friend, who said, when estrogen levels are high the body produces more testosterone to reach an equilibrium in hormonal levels

Carry on MA, don't let schooling for the day be over, absorbing every bit of info +1

MRfeathers wrote: DJ am i correct in saying the higher the BF % the higher the estrogen levels which could cause low tets levels?

not all the time, having very low body fat levels can actually have an adverse effect on testosterone levels, look at pre contest natural body builders,alot of the time they have extremely low test levels due to increased stress on the body and low calorie diets, this is why i said that we need to look at keeping diet full of nutrient rich calories to make sure the body is well nourished.

alot of the time guys who have higher body fat levels in their later years of life suffer from low testosterone levels, and the lower test levels is the cause for the fat gain etc... alot of the time the low test levels are due to terrible diet,lack of exercise and older age.

also doesnt mean just because u have high body fat levels doesnt mean you have high estrogen, fat gain on the hips,love handles and chest could be due to higher estrogen levels as this is quite common of estrogen related fat patterns. by keeping estrogen down and test high does mean that u will have better body composition no doubt,but just because you are fat doesnt mean you have a higher estrogen levels

MRfeathers wrote: The reason I asked is because I had a very long argument with a friend, who said, when estrogen levels are high the body produces more testosterone to reach an equilibrium in hormonal levels

Estrogen is synthesised from testosterone.... so i think your friend has the wrong end of the stick....

Thanks to everyone for the replys!

@Muscleaddict, thanks for all this info man, really helping me. I will raise all these questions when I see the doc again.

@DJ: I have hired a prep coach from the U.S who helped me last year and is helping me this year as well, I obviously cant release his name here but just drop me a mail and I can share with you.

I feel my diet is pretty spot on:

My macros are:
Training days
P: 265
C:300
F: 70

Non Training:
P: 265
C: 275
F: 65

I hit these macros perfectly every day, with one cheat meal a week.

BF%: 11
Weight: 84kgs Morning Weight.

My food choices are:
Protein:
Egg Whites
Chicken
Hake
Extra Lean Beef Mince
Steak
Sometimes Ostrich
Whey

Carbs:
White Potato
Sweet Potato
Rice
Oats
Wholewheat Pasta

Fats:
Olive Oil
Cocunut Oil
Almond Butter
Peanut Butter
Egg Yolk

I did get thyroid tested and it was perfect.

My Multivit I use is ON Optimen. I also take SSN Anabolic drive so I can get the 3grams of DAA out of it.
My BCAAS i use BPI BLOX and Scivation Xtend.

Thanks for the help DJ, appreciate it buddy

Hey guys!

A friend of mine is going to join the forum today, he is in the same boat as me! and he is now seeing the same doc!

HE stayed off for a WHOLE year and i think 2 or 3 months and his levels were still in the gutter! HE is interested in your opinions on what other options there are besides what we doing now...

Have a good workers day gents!!

@dj
Can you comment on the diet or vitamin intake and maybe reccomend something i could change?

Hey Guys

One of switch's buddies and in pretty much the same boat.

Started roids very young and didn't know what I was doing.
But stayed off for about a year and a half and just happened to go for bloods because couldn't build well and saw my levels were in the gutter.\

I'm now 25 years old.

Original Blood Results:

S-17b-Oestradiol (E2) - 65
Total Test - 7.1
Sex Hormone - Binding Globulin - 26.70
Free Test - 152
S-Dehydroepiandrosterone - 4.13

Went to see the same Doc as switch and he put me on:

DHEA - 3 tabs a day
Dixirit ( Medication that stimulates the pituary gland to produce more gh)
HCG (5000ius a week)
Solal Libido Enhancer
StaminoGrow

2 months later - bloods were:

S-IGF1 - 358.3
S-17b-Oestradiol (E2) - 117
Total Test - 13.5
Sex Hormone - Binding Globulin - 15.10
Free Test - 394


I have now been told to stay on everything except HCG and to stay off HCG for 12 weeks and then repeat the cycle 12 weeks on HCG 12 weeks off HCG.

And half a tablet of Arimidex once a week.

Diet is good and very very clean.
I have a coach who does my diet and its very good and clean.
Training very hard at the moment but would love to be growing more. LoL

Concerned what to do moving forward ??

The DR seems to think I will be on DHEA and HCG for the rest of my life.

What would you guys suggest ??\

What is the best way to grow well and stay healthy ??

Appreciate all the help guys.

i think if the doc was to comment on this he would suggest using ovidrel over HCG,and also i think the blasting dosage of 5000iu once a week is a problem,there was a big debate years back between doctari and Conan stating anything more than 1000iu of hcg in one hit can actually cause infertility, if i was you i would take that hcg dosage down to 500iu every 2nd day but do a double shot so once in the morning and once in the evening, also switch up the arimadex for aromasin. aromasin wont have an estrogenic rebound quite like arimadex.also 1/2 a tab a week seems low. look into doing the lower dose hcg/ovidrel more frequently vs 1 big shot, also throw in some kessar with the aromasin as this will help test levels in my opinion,i did this when i had lower test levels and it worked wonders.

also look into increasing your omega 3's. i suggest 3000mg 2-3x a day. are u feeling very lethargic during the day and sleepy? constantly tired? i was off for 18 months recently and went for bloods and the first thing my doc did was put me one 50mcg of t4 and she suggested that 250mg of test a week or 1000mg every 6 weeks(nebido) would be a good option to look at,i am 27 years old and my test levels were at 22 which isnt too low,but isnt near the middle of normal ranges, i had done 3 pct's in the 18months due to trying to get my wife pregnant. i opted for a low dose of cyprionate once a week,and well 14 weeks later i am up 11kgs after recovering from a surgery and body fat is down 5%. so going on to an HRT dose of test isnt always a bad thing.

Thanks a mill dj

Every now and again i feel tired and lerthargic, but it has DEFINATELY got better since i have been doing all of this!

Would the low test levels cause that dj??

Also, is ovidrel available from pharmacys now?

With regare to hrt, would u say at my age of 22/23 it is not something i should even consider??

And why did you choice cyp over nebido?

Thanks brother

ovitrelle is available from pharmacys if u have a script for it. the reason i say this i was also put on t4 from my doctor. although my bloods came back with semi normal thyroid function my TSH levels were quite high so she put me on 50mcg of t4 and well world of difference,i started the test 2 weeks later and even just on the thyroid meds my libido was up,energy,mood everything was so much better. your thyroid level controls alot in the body and if 1 thing is out it has a cascade effect on the rest of things.

look if u could switch i would go and see an endocrinoligist and see what they have to say if docs pct doesnt pull u right, what everyone needs to remember with docs pct is that it is the minimum needed to get everything going again,some guys need to go back on the pct and repeat it for 30-60 days depending on the substances and length of the previous cycle, i ended up doing a 75day long pct because of my previous cycle 2 years ago because i use alot of tren,equi,super test,test prop and orals, i was very supressed and i did an extra long pct which brought me back to basic "normal level". my sperm count was high at 15% per ml (had to have this checked when the wife wasnt falling pregnant) which our specialist said was very high and very abnormal and was quite shocked untill i told him about the pct that i did, but he said average is 7% per ml, so i was more than double.

cyp over nebido, well one i had 2 bottles of cyp in my cupboard and the other i would have to pay in for medical aid and shit like that so i just decided to shoot the cyp

Ok cool I see.

Yeah, I am trying to book an appointment with an endo now and see what comes of it.

If I wanted to do the 75 day long PCT, would you be able to tell me what it consisted of DJ??

I just want to sort this out once and for all, YES, i screwed up BAD, but now im tired of the yo yoing of my hormones, Maybe an endo is best.

What would you say about KTM's post bud?? A few posts up, he was off for over a year and levels were still shocking.

i would also suggest redoing the pct, all i did was i did docs pct,but went through 3 boxes of ovidrelle,3 tamoxifen and 3 aromasin, so i just extended the length of that to pretty much 75days.

so i did the 50mg clomid 2x a day for 7 days, then i ran the rest of the components for a longer period of time.